Ep #319: Negotiation for Physicians with Linda Street, MD

Welcome to the Weight Loss for Busy Physicians podcast. I'm your host, master-certified life and Weight Loss coach Katrina Ubell, M.D. This is the podcast where busy doctors like you come to learn how to lose weight for the last time by harnessing the power of your mind. If you're looking to overcome your stress, eating and exhaustion and move into freedom around food, you're in the right place.

Hey there, my friend. Welcome to the podcast. I've got a really great episode for you today. I decided to invite a former client turned negotiation coach who's also a physician in practice right now to come to talk today about negotiating. This is something that we know so many women struggle with and some men too, but in particular women. And if we want to have any hope of closing the gender pay gap, then we have to learn how to ask for what we want.

And before we can do that, we need to even understand what it is that we want anyway, Linda is really just a boss when it comes to this kind of stuff. I mean, she is the person that you want in your corner and she is the kind of coach who's just not going to like, beat around the bush or mess around or feed you any fluff. She's going to give you the actual steps and help that you need to be able to get what you want, the result that you want, which is, you know, the job that you want, whether it's your financial goals or even other parts like benefits or other aspects to the work that you're looking to negotiate.

She is your girl. So I am very excited to introduce you to Linda St. She's a maternal-fetal medicine doctor in practice, working still full time and has her second job. She also coaches women physicians on negotiating. And I just we had a great conversation. I'm so excited to share it with you. I hope that you learn a lot with this. I think you will. And maybe pick one thing out and decide how you're going to apply that moving forward. Right. Listen, for one thing, even if it's just a different way of thinking about things that you can start applying. Because I think for a lot of us, this isn't just like we learn something one day. The next day we're making a huge change. It's much more related to changing our mindset, getting our thinking straight, so that when we're ready to take action, we're in that place and ready to go. Have a great rest of your week and please enjoy my conversation with Linda St. Linda, welcome to the podcast. I'm so glad you're here.

Thank you so much for having me. It's like a full circle conversation here today.

It is a full circle moment here. I am very excited to have this conversation. As I told you before we started, I've been thinking about this topic for a while just recently. I think it kind of ebbs and flows for me a little bit. But before we kind of jump into everything, I'd love for you to just introduce yourself a little bit and then also tell everybody where did your interest in negotiating come from?

Yes. So I'm Linda Street. I am a maternal fetal medicine doc down in Georgia. And actually it's fun because I accidentally fell into negotiation being a hobby. This was not something I ever said. I'm going to love this. This is going to be something that I do. But I was in my first job out of fellowship when I was actually doing your program, and I found out that my male partner was making 150,000 more than I was annually, and obviously that required some thought work and I had all sorts of thoughts.

I think I was born fighting the patriarchy a little bit, so my brain totally. Forrest When I found out this piece of information and nothing it offered me was rational, so I had decided that that was not okay and I needed to figure out a solution. But every time I thought about making a solution to this problem, I just felt like I went up against a wall because my department chair at that time I was in academics with someone who, personality wise, he and I did not mesh well and the idea of going up against him, which is how my brain was perceiving it at that time to ask for money, was just absolutely overwhelming to the point where it just shut down everything beyond that.

So I could not get past, Oh my God, I'm going to go talk to this guy and ask for money. And I knew that he wasn't concerned about equity and fairness. And so that was not the approach that was going to make me successful. So I was actually getting coaching in your group about it and the kind of redirect was brought up of why does it have to be you versus him? And at first I was like, Well, because he's a jerk and my boss. And that's obviously that's how this is going to be. That was my first instinct. But then I was like, okay, you know, this was a few months into the group, so I was like, okay, I can be an adult here. And maybe there is an alternative perspective here. It took me a week. I think it took several days to kind of come around to that point pretty fast.

I think. I mean, honestly. I didn't have a timeline. I had a meeting, I think two weeks later. So I was like, okay, we're going to timeline here. We got to get this done. We had to move it along this along. So really allowed myself to be curious and I didn't want to. So for the record, for everybody out there who's resistant to that thought, I did not want to. Be curious here. I wanted to be resistant, but decided that that was a possibility. I could entertain at least, and really came along to the perspective that it benefited him and me if I stayed. And that was something that felt very true. I was like, I can get on board with that.

I'm a sub specialist in an area that's hard to recruit to, and there is a benefit for the department for me to be here, and if I leave, there is hardship associated with that so I can get on board with the fact that he runs a department. He wants to be financially solvent and complete, and I help with that. So I have some common ground here. And from there it was just really able to start actually thinking of a plan because I removed that barrier of, I can't do this, it's me versus him and he's stronger. And so once that was out of the way, I was able to come up with solutions. And I got a 65,000 raise in academics that year.

So still not the 150, though. So tell me what your thoughts were about that.

Well, so my partner did have some responsibilities I didn't have, so he should be making a little bit more than I did, not 150,000 more, because clinically we were doing about the same thing. But ultimately I ended up leaving that job a year later. So the 65,000 was a nice step in the right direction and it was a great confidence boost for me of I can do this. And I think that's actually what kind of triggered the next cascade of me ending up deciding that I can do this somewhere else too, because my next thought was, oh, I'm getting paid better and that's nice. But this is still a toxic environment for me to practice in.

So what do I do? Well I have a non-compete and family reasons to need to stay in the area. So I guess I just say and then over the course of several months that one took longer, less of a deadline. I ended up ultimately deciding, you know, a non-compete means I can't work within 30 miles for one year. It does not mean that I have no options.

Right? It's like the facts versus a story we tell ourselves about the facts.

It's amazing how the basic things work when you allow them to.

Well, you mean this software thing, this coaching. It works magic. So that ended up leading to me leaving that job, which was actually during that non-compete year, was when I had pursued coach training in the year in between the Rays and the non-compete year. But that's what led to this becoming a business because I was like, you know, I have all this time on my hands because I was doing locum tenens, so I'd go for a week and be gone and then I'd come back for a week because my kids were little. They were like four and seven at the time.

So also not a barrier because the thought of my kids are little, what am I going to do? I'm the breadwinner. My husband is not a physician. And so during that time I had extra time on my hands and I ended up making this a business because I was not the only one with this problem. And absolutely not. The same things that helped me have helped hundreds of other female physicians, because it's some of it is structural. Certainly there are issues that are systemic, but there's also a bringing yourself to the table piece, a mindset piece of just engaging and not being willing to accept that no is an answer.

Right, right, right. It seems to me like there's kind of two sort of groups of people, you know, and maybe they kind of fall even some into both. But it's kind of like the people who are feeling like from a feelings perspective, you know, one group that feels like very timid and scared and like, what if they're mad at me? What if they look at me different? Like, so they don't want to speak up for that reason? And then the other group of people who are actually much more in like the angry camp, you know, where they're just like super mad and they're so mad that they can't think clearly to be able to put together any kind of negotiating strategy that could work. So maybe they don't say anything and they're just stewing and, you know, just getting eaten over the inside, you know, just like like just rotting from this anger. Or maybe they're asking and then through their anger, you know, expecting these people that they're angry at to respond with a no. So when they get the No, they're like, right, exactly what I thought you proved my point.

There is no solution here. It's just more expecting to have a confirmation of what they already believe. And I think both areas can hold people back, women in particular, from getting what it is that they want. I'm curious what your thoughts are about that.

Yeah, no, actually, most people that I've worked with I think, fall more in the people pleasing and but I was solid in that rage camp and so it required a little effort to be able to help folks who are more in the kind of timid people pleasing camp because that's not something that I've personally had as many issues with because I don't think I was ever timid. For more than 5 minutes my entire life.

But yeah, I think a lot of the kind of societal socialization really pairs into that too. And then you add on top of that medical socialization and you are just ripe to not ask for what you need not to advocate for yourself. Because as women were told, don't rock the boat. You have to play nice in the sandbox. You have to be grateful for what you have. All of these things make it more difficult to advocate for ourselves or that make it seem like it's selfish or it's not a worthy cause to go fighting for. And then on top of that, there's medical school where it's you're so lucky to have this spot. You're so lucky that we get to abuse you 80 hours a week.

Like you should just be lighting candles left and right. That continues. And you forget that when you're an attending and you now have some bargaining power, you have some leverage because you are in a system now where there are options available to you a little bit more broadly. And you're just so in that mindset of I can't rock the boat, I have to keep people happy, so I can't ask for this because it could impact so and so and so and so. Part time is where that one comes up A lot.

A lot of clients that I work with want some type of adjusted schedule because for whatever season in their life that is going to be ideal for them. I think people actually have a harder time asking for that than they do money. And interesting, a lot of the time they want that more than money. And so asking about part time, one of the big kind of barriers as far as obstacles from a thought perspective that people come up against is, well, somebody has to do that work, so it's going to fall on my partners.

I'm not being a team player. Then I'm hurting the team. Yeah, like this. It's like apologizing, right? Like I'm coming in apologizing for asking for what's best for me and taking responsibility for the effect on other people, which is essentially like a false ownership. Right. We don't have to own. Absolutely right. And the other thing to think about is, are those other people factoring us in as they're making their decisions? I mean, probably not if they're men in particular. Really? Probably not.

Yeah. And even so, I mean, how many of those people would also love a similar schedule or some type of flexible environment in some way that you could be the person who really opens that door for them? Because if you need a mind hack, I mean, I believe that certainly you can ask for it just because it's what's best for you. But I find kind of a bridge thought for some folks when they're really in the trenches of I don't want to make things difficult for other people is what if there's someone I can help by showing that there are different ways this can look?

Right? Right. You're not just taking, taking, taking. You're actually giving. Absolutely.

In a different way. I like that. That's the that's really, really cool. So here's something that I have noticed from time to time coming up. And I think it's a way, you know, women have been so encouraged, rightly so, to negotiate, to ask for what they want, you know, to put themselves out there in that way. And I'm all for it. I think that's amazing.

But I have also noticed definitely some people who get a little bit confused about how one might go about that so that they could have a chance of being successful. Yeah, what I mean by that, like an example is saying, you know what, I want to make x, y, z amount of money. Um, and not coming prepared with any kind of support around. Why? Like saying I want to do the same amount of work, but I want to be paid more. And I have no, you know, nothing to compare this to. I don't know anybody else who's being paid this much. In fact, the people doing this work across the board aren't getting paid that much, and I'm not offering any additional value. But I just want to ask.

Yeah, no, absolutely right.

And I'm like, I find that kind of fascinating because, of course, you can try to go about it that way. But I don't think that you're going to be very successful because, like, why would somebody pay more money for the same job when you look around at the area or, you know, just that job in particular and people aren't paying that much, like when you are going to ask, you have to think exactly like what you did. How do we both win?
By me getting what I want and you have to sell yourself on it first before you can have any hope of selling another person on it.

But it really is essentially, in my opinion, I'd love to know what you think. A sales interaction. Right. Here's the proposal. Here's my pitch. I'm proposing that you pay me this and this is to your benefit in these ways. You know, I'm going to add this thing on. I'm going to do take on this project or whatever it is, or I'm not going to do that. But like, to your point, the cost to replace a physician is X dollars, which is ten times what I'm asking as an increase. So it would seem to me that it would work in everyone's favor to do this. Like, to me, that makes the most sense. And I think a lot of people just haven't kind of made it made that connection of it's not just asking for what you want. There needs to be some like a foundation to it, sort of like not a justification, but like a like some support. Underneath why somebody would want to do that. So anyway, I would love to know what you think about it, because I think you're going to be a lot more successful in getting what you want when you take the time to do that.

Right. It is preparation. You wouldn't show up to your board exams having never studied, but we show up to these negotiation conversations without having prepared and it's such a huge piece of your job satisfaction. I always tell people you're not choosing comfort or discomfort. You're choosing the discomfort of having a conversation that you may not feel as confident about. And I teach people this and have for years at this point and still have to prepare, Like I still feel uncomfortable having these conversations sometimes.

So I do the same preparation I ask other people to do. It's not something that you're just all of a sudden going to switch it on and, Oh, I can do this without preparation now, like you have to prepare same way as a physician that you have some patients that you can just do that consultation off the top of your head. You have other things that you have to prepare for before you go into that consultation because it's not something you're doing every single day. And so I think preparation is huge and skipping that is common and a fatal flaw to kind of elucidate what that looks like because people are like, okay, I need to prepare how a lot of it is a being crystal clear on what you want because salary is a piece of that 100%.

But what in your daily life as a physician, in your job, if you're trying to renegotiate or if you're looking for a new job in your dream job, what would that look like? Like having a clear picture of what you want is really helpful because you can much more easily ask for things if you know what you're asking for.

It is a lot simpler to clarify and be able to look from different angles. If you know what your goal is, what the outcome you're looking for is. And then the second piece that I think is most often forgotten is why are they offering me this job? Or why did they employ me? Why do they want me in this position? Because if you have a better feel for what they're looking for, what value you provide to them, it's a whole lot easier to leverage that in order to get what you want. And I actually have people draw like a Venn diagram. It's like the simplest little third grade science thing of What am I offering? What are my skills? What do I bring to the table in addition to my clinical skill set? Because yes, all of us are physicians with a clinical skill set, but you're also an individual human who has something to offer. It may be a different language you speak. It may be relationships with docs in the community.

That was something I leveraged hard in my last negotiation because as a sub specialist, that's huge. I didn't have to go and build a referral base. I had one. I just had to tap back into it and that's a lot different process. That's a lot faster. And for an employer who's looking for growth, that's going to be valuable and it's not something we think about right off the top of the kind of gamut, but it's important and looking for where they headed, Why are they hiring me today and where do they want to be in three or five years? And you can ask those questions in your interview to get that information as well, because, A, you're going to look engaged because most people aren't.

So if you're asking like, where do you see this department going? Where do you see this division growing? Where do you see my role changing over the next few years? That gives you information you can use to show them why you're the perfect person for that role? Because leverage is a two way street. Part of the leverage is what alternatives do I have? What better options do I have so that I have the freedom to say yes or no or walk away? And that part of the equation may be really robust for you. It may not be. It depends on your personal circumstances in whatever given negotiation you're in, but the opposite side is always available to you. And what that is, is showing them why you're the perfect person for this role, why they want you in this role, and not just a body in the role. Because the more they feel that way, the more they're willing to go to bat for you, the more they're willing to actually advocate on your behalf to be able to get you what you need and be a little more flexible.

Yeah. I mean, I. Wow. That's, like, super good what you just said there. It's like you're really just painting a picture for yourself of what you envision and what you want, and then you're inviting them into that picture, right? It's like you're creating it. It's like we're both winning in this picture, and it's so much easier to say yes then. And I could not agree with you more. I mean, being a business owner myself, right? Somebody who has taken the time to really listen to, like, what is the vision? What are we really trying to accomplish here? And then sees how they can fit in or maybe even proposes a way that maybe I never even thought of before, of being able to add value and come in and help in some way.

I mean, it's just, first of all, great to work with people who want to be there, right? Being like they're not just there for the paycheck. They're there because they feel connected in some other way to the work being done, and then there's fair compensation for that work, right? So so I think that that really is so good. Exactly what you said, which is like, where do you expect this role to go? What are you looking to do? You can mak assumptions. You might be totally wrong. You know, like I'm just thinking back when I was in practice, you know, I was the first employed position they had ever had in 40 years of the practice.

And I'll just say that I went into it with so many assumptions of what was on the table, what would be on the table in hindsight now, I'm like, Girl, oh my gosh. Like it's it now that I know how it all played out, right? Like, I'm just like, wow, just wow. But at the time it seems so rational and like, I like I really thought I knew, but like, nobody had actually said anything and I hadn't even asked. And I think that's a big part of it, like having the courage or gumption, so to speak, to go in, especially if it's a new job and asking those questions, not just looking at it like, Oh, I'm just so lucky that you've chosen me. I'm so blessed to be the one who comes and works for you, you know, like actually recognizing that you have a really important part to play and understanding how they see that part.

Because I think another area where people really get into trouble, where they just are so dissatisfied is when they didn't ask, they were coming in thinking, I'm going to play this position on the team. The employee. You're is thinking, no, you're going to play this position on the team and they're not the same. And then it's just constant butting heads all over lack of discussion and just not being on the same page about the whole thing.

Right. Which is valuable too, because if you find out like they're headed in this direction and that is absolutely not in alignment with where I want to be, you can say, you know, thank you for the opportunity. It's been a great learning experience. I think that you and I are headed in different directions and I think I'm going to turn this down at this time. Like you can save yourself a whole lot of drama by not choosing something that wasn't a good fit for you. And I think this is like shoes, because we've all grown up with this like impression of what a doctor looks like and what being a doctor looks like. And a lot of that is based in a very not today kind of perspective.

Like a Norman Rockwell painting.

Yes.

When doctors didn't look like the workforce does today. So as our workforce has become more diverse, the jobs have not changed as quickly as the people have. And you're not going to be able to fit a single mom with three kids into the same role as a good old boy with like a stay at home wife was able to fill. Like, those are different people. They're going to fill the role differently. And it's not better or worse. It's just different.

And medicine and the way medicine looks hasn't really kept up with the diversity that we're starting to attract, which is it's good. It's good that we're becoming more diverse. But there's been a lag time between the jobs matching the people, filling the jobs. And yes, you can put on a shoe that doesn't fit, but 3 hours into the day, your feet hurt and you have a blister. And it may not be debilitating at first, but it's going to nag over time and rub and rub it rub. And then you get into an environment where it's completely toxic for you. And all of it could have been prevented by the shoe fitting from the get go.

And I think so much of that is having the patience to find the right fit. Right. Like I think when we're not, you know, in a place where our minds are managed well, we can accept jobs out of desperation. I know, like I've totally done this. I'm sure so many people have like told myself that I knew what was available and this was all there was, even though if I'm really being honest, I basically did zero research and it just was going based on what a couple people I know said, You know what I mean? Like, no, that's not actually research, you know, and you don't really know what's available to you and you owe it, I think everybody owes it to themselves to put in that due diligence, to really figure it out, to spend some time thinking about what is it that I contribute.

If you have a hard time answering that question, then that doesn't mean you don't contribute anything. That means there's some work to do on you. Seeing your own self worth, like valuing yourself in what you offer so that, you know, it's kind of like you can't come to the negotiating table thinking the valuable thing in question isn't very valuable.

You know what I mean? Like, I'm really pretty terrible and, you know, I can't do a very good job, but you should pay me more. Like, No, that's not going to work very well. I'm curious what you think about this. My husband is a part owner in his medical practice. He's said actually for many years how when they hire a new medical assistant, which I mean, they're all women. They will I mean, pretty much across the board completely. Just they'll say, you know, do you have a certain number in mind or whatever?

And they'll just be like, oh, whatever is okay. And then they'll be like, Is this number? And they're like, okay, sure. And it reminds me of, Oh my gosh, I reminds me of baby sitting. You know, I am like 12 years old or whatever, babysitting. And then, you know, the parents coming home and saying like, oh, how much per hour? And me just being like, oh, whatever. You don't like feeling so uncomfortable being like, Well, it's $5 per kid or whatever it would have been back in those days. I'm sure I got paid way less than $5 for.

Like $2 an hour for a four-week-old and a three-year-old. Yeah, it was a mess.

It was like crazy. But. But I think that we can, you know, that that's another part of that socialization. And also just girls and women not being taught that you can actually ask for something. Because here's the thing too, that I and I realize this even just being as you know, as a business owner, like, you know, I've negotiated with people, they've come back and asked for more. And I really had to think, you know, I mean, that was higher than what I'm thinking. But I'm also like, well, I mean, okay, we can afford it.

That's what this person needs to be able to come to work every day and not be thinking that they're not being compensated properly for the work that they're doing. I think that when you believe you're being compensated fairly, you're not even thinking about that. I mean, how many times do I have a thought of like, I'm not getting paid enough to do a whole lot, you know, like that's just not even on the table. And so, yeah, I will look at the budget and go, Yeah, okay, yeah, we will pay you that because the person asked versus the person who didn't ask, but then is harboring some resentment or having those thoughts or even saying it out loud, I'm not getting paid enough to do this, you know.

So anyway, I think that that's something to, you know, almost like challenge ourselves on. And if nothing else, I mean, to help ourselves, but also to change the way the young women in our lives do things right. Because like, I think if I think about my daughter doing it like that, I'm like, what? Oh, you're not working with me. I might be like, Oh, okay, whatever. It doesn't matter.

Absolutely. And some of that's that preparation. Like you should know approximately what is the range of expectation for pay for what I do in the region I'm looking in, because it varies by all of those things. It varies by specialty, it varies by region, it varies by type of job, academic versus private practice versus hospital employed. All of those things go into what is a typical range. And it's not to say you have to be within that typical range, but most people will.

That's why it's typical. And making sure, though, that you're not on the bottom end of that typical range that you know, Och, this is the 50th percentile, this is about the 25th and 75th. Like where do I want to be? I always tell people your stretch goal has to be the 75th or above, because otherwise I'll ask what's a stretch goal? And somebody will pick like the 35th percentile. I'm like, Anything below the 50th percentile can never be your stretch goal. The end, unless you're working part time and getting paid like the 35th percentile for full time. We can get on board, but like a stretch goal has to be uncomfortable. That's the goal. And by nature, most of us have been socialized in such a way that our default comfort level is going to be way too low.

And so you need that little pull or stretch to kind of get you to a better compensation range. But you should know those numbers. Ballpark, look at Medscape. It's online and Free Docs Committee publishes data is online and free. There are better databases. So there are things like GMA and AMC and all the different initials, and those are available for smaller fees through several different places.

I always buy MDMA every year for my clients, but like, it doesn't matter which one you pick as much as having a general gist of what is being offered or interview at a few places in the same metropolitan area. And then, you know, so and so offered me this so and so offered me that it's not going to be the same. And that gives you an idea of what is a range for the same me at these different jobs. And does that match up with how well this job fits for me and what. And go from there. Because if you go in and that was my problem with my first job, I went in as a PGY five interviewing for a job for after I was a PG seven, because why not? And everything felt like a lot. I was like, compared to the.

Right comparative thousand dollars a year or whatever I was making.

Like swimming.

I was like, This is so much money. And it seemed like the highest pay ever. Well, it was the 25th percentile. It was not high, but it felt high in comparison to me as a high five. It is high compared to the average American, but I have a quarter million dollars in debt. At that time I had all these other things and it's okay to make money like it's all right for you to say, even if.

You didn't have the debt, doesn't matter.

Right? I heard being a different job. Yeah. The average person doing my job is making, say, 500,000. I'm just picking a nice round number. Then why would I want to make less than that? But you have to know those numbers to be able to position yourself well. And that's where I here with a lot of fields, they're like, well, I may insert here. They just don't get paid well. No, but you could be the highest paid of that kind of job. Or yes, they get paid by or whatever. Like you get to choose how you believe about that. That number is neutral. But there's a range for every specialty. There's a range for every region. And so all of these well, I'm this or oh, I work in this city, those type of thoughts like and there's still a range or if you can't get the salary to a different level, how else could this job serve you better?

Exactly right. Because it's not just about the money necessarily. It can be other benefits, time off, things like that.

Most people don't leave jobs over money. Most people leave jobs over flexibility, autonomy, culture. Like, it's not only the money and it's almost the money is the easiest piece. Like there's data on that. You can kind of pick a range, decide where you want to be and go for it. It's the intangible things that really make or break a job for you. So if the money is you've tried it and you've gone at it a couple of different ways and it's not moving, how else could you look at that? How else could this be advantageous for you? How could this be better for you in your daily life? And so there's so much more to it.

Right, Right, right. I think it's really important to mention that, too, because it is the whole package, right? It could be that you're willing to be paid less because that's what's available. But, you know, you're super connected to the work that they're doing there or the culture of the organization or whoever your leader is going to be or the mentorship that's going to be available to you or just whatever it is that's super valuable as well. And a really important part of your day to day experience. I mean, my understanding is that some people are checking their bank balance every single day, but I think that most people aren't thinking about like every single moment, how much am I getting paid to pay for this? Right? Like, what we are thinking about is what is it like to actually do this job here?

So in terms of impacting your actual day to day life, that might even be might even be more important. Yeah. Yeah. That's so good. Yeah. Wow. Such good stuff to think about. Because, I mean, really what it comes down to is like, the world is better when women have money. You know, like women do good things with the money that they have or like being able to be satisfied and and fulfilled in their work and have the time and flexibility to do the other things that are important to them, be involved in their personal lives and whatever way they decide they want to.

I was just going to wrap up here with just encouraging anybody who's listening. I think it could be really easy. I mean, you've given us some really great information here today, and I hope everybody applies it. But I think there's also a lot of people who think like, I should just be able to do this myself, like I listen to this podcast or maybe, you know, you have a podcast, you listen to that and like, I should just be able to do this. And I just want to just emphasize the value that having a coach to take you through this process, you know, can really bring like whatever. I don't even know how much you charge, but whatever it is, it's like an investment to be able to get so much more right, like I'm going to pay this much to get help so that I can learn this skill that's repeatable again and again and can get me compensated so much more fairly.

Or keep you in medicine.

Or keep you in medicine. I gosh, yes, I'm glad you brought that up, because I think so many people are like, Well, you know what? I'm not happy. I guess I got to leave. Yeah. And, you know, that's not necessarily good for medicine. And then we're like staff shortages and we can't find anybody to work. I'm like.

You created this environment where people weren't being treated like people.

Exactly. I don't think about it very often because obviously, I have a very, very full and fulfilling life, the work that I do. But man, had I had coaching back in the day when I was practicing. I mean, it would have just made all the difference. And so, so, so, so, so many ways. Right.

And everybody doesn't have to stay in medicine, but everybody who wants to should be able to.

Or at least give it a good shot before deciding, You know what, This isn't for me because that's okay if it's not. But it's so, so good. Well, how can everybody find you? You have a podcast. You obviously coach people, give us all the information.

Yes. I try to keep things simple because it's nice and easy. Part of why I married my husband was his last name was easy, so my podcast is simply worth it and my website is simply st IMDB.com. So it's just simply straight. Like you list one simply straight out dot com and I'm around. So the podcast comes out weekly and I'm on the website, on Facebook, all the places and really just no matter what, really be willing to advocate for yourself.

And sometimes that's hiring a coach, right. Like that might be the only advocating you could do right now is going to. Or a coach to help me so that I can advocate for myself in other areas of my life.

You helped me and I was in a weight loss coaching program. Like it doesn't even have to be me that coaches you to for you to be able to successfully negotiate. It's all same human brain stuff, but being willing to have someone who can challenge you and really be a mirror for the process is certainly super effective. And then community having community of others. I know you and I both work with women physicians, having a community of other women physicians who have similar shared experiences is just a level of support that is very unique and incredibly valuable because it's nice to see I'm not the only one who ran into this obstacle. I'm not the only one who has had this inbox issue or whatever. And crowdsourcing those solutions. Crowdsourcing just the I'm not alone part is hugely valuable.

Yeah, and I think having a community even within that, like a sub community of people who are actively working on trying to make it better because I mean, if we're being honest, right, so much of the kind of social media communities and stuff is just like a lot of complaining and that can actually make you feel so much worse. Right? And a lot of just like heaviness. Right? Exactly. It's just like when you start seeing a bunch of people chiming in in that way, it's easy to start thinking like there's no hope.

But when you have like this unique community of people who are like, you are, as you said, sharing every all of those similar experiences and are actively working on solving that problem and doing something different, it's like it's the opposite, right? Like you feel energized, you feel excited, you see someone else did it and they got this result and you're like, You know what? Och, I think it might be my turn next.
I think I'm going to do it, which is, which is so cool. So, Linda, thank you so much for coming and sharing all this. It's a really, really, really important topic. And I think to your point, I think it has a lot to do with physician satisfaction and fulfillment in their work and everything that we can do to help with that. That's going to be better for all of us. And I don't know about you, but I don't want to be taken care of or my family taken care of by a doctor who is burned out and hates being there and thinks that they're underpaid.

You pay them all the money. I need them to take care of me when I'm getting older and need health care, please.

Exactly. Exactly. But thank you so much.

Yes, ma'am. Thanks for having me.

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