Judith Gaton is a lawyer turned style coach who helps women feel confident in their bodies and own their curves. She’s also a certified life coach, an author, an entrepreneur, a podcaster, and a self-professed Professor of Glam and Elegance.

In this episode, we’re talking about everything related to clothing, undergarments, and style—including the importance of wearing underwear that fits and how to find the right ones for your unique body. We also discuss chafing season, what you can do to minimize the discomfort that all women experience (regardless of their size or shape), and why we need to stop the misconception that beauty equals pain. Instead, let’s embrace the motto that beauty can be comfortable!

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In Today’s Episode, You’ll Learn:

  • How Judith got into law, even though style has always been her passion.
  • What rebellious resistance is and why it doesn’t serve us.
  • The importance of foundational undergarments.
  • Why so many women don’t wear proper fitting clothes and underwear.
  • How to find underwear that fits and supports.

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Read the Transcript Below:

Katrina Ubell: You are listening to the Weight Loss For Busy Physicians podcast with Katrina Ubell, MD, episode number 227.

Katrina Ubell: Welcome to the Weight Loss For Busy Physicians podcast. I’m your host, master certified life and weight loss coach, Katrina Ubell, MD. This is the podcast where busy doctors like you come to learn how to lose weight for the last time by harnessing the power of your mind. If you’re looking to overcome your stress eating and exhaustion and move into freedom around food, you’re in the right place.

Katrina Ubell: Welcome. Welcome. Welcome, my friends, back to the podcast. I’m so glad you’re here. This is going to be a super, super fun episode. I can’t wait to share my lovely friend Judith with you. She is an amazing, amazing style coach, but also a lawyer. And she’s actually transitioning out of being a lawyer to doing style coaching full-time, because that’s how amazing she is. And that’s how good she is at style. She took a little detour along the way by becoming a lawyer for many years, but she’ll tell you more about that in our conversation. It was super, super fun.

Katrina Ubell: Before we get to that though, I want to just share with you something really exciting. And that is that I am in my new office recording this right now. So just last night I got everything set up. I still have some organizing to do and some putting away of things. But it makes me so happy to be here. It might be a little echo-y. I need to get a rug and some softer things up here. But I just couldn’t be happier to be up here. It’s just made my day. I’m so happy. I’m giddy with excitement. So for those of you who are able to get onto Zoom calls with me, you’re going to be able to see my gorgeous new background, and it’s just a delight. It’s so great. Yay. So anyway, just wanted to share that. It’s been a long, painful process. It’s a bit of a labor of love. It kind of reminds me of delivering a child. It was painful at times, but totally worth it in the end. So anyway, just wanted to share that great news.

Katrina Ubell: So my friend Judith, we’ve been friends for five years. She is a great friend of mine. And I have been wanting to share her with you for quite some time, but I wanted to make sure that she was in a place where she was ready to take on the onslaught of people who are going to want to work with her. So just be careful. I know you’re going to be like, “Oh, I’m not going to.” Oh yeah you are. You’re going to want to, just trust me. Just trust me. But she’s got a really great free resource that she offers you at the end. It’s amazing. You’re going to want it.

Katrina Ubell: And this is important stuff to talk about. It’s easy for us to just think that clothes aren’t important. And you may be wondering what are we … We’re talking about clothes. Not that I tricked you with the title, but I wanted you to listen. I didn’t want you to be like, “I’m not listening to that one.” And what we’re talking about is foundational undergarments and why they’re important, especially when you are in the process of weight loss or you’ve gained weight and maybe things don’t fit properly, and how to know if they don’t fit properly, and how to basically problem solve. Diagnose what the issue is, and then come up with a solution so that your undergarments fit you properly, why that’s important. We take it to all kinds of deep stuff and we just have a great time.

Katrina Ubell: So I can’t wait to share my lovely friend Judith with you. She’s so great. You’re going to love her. She’s super fun. I do want to let you know that there is a little bit of colorful language in there. She cleaned it up. I did ask here, I was like … Because I don’t mind swearing at all, but I know some people do. So I was like, “Could you maybe not swear a ton?” But there is a little bit in there. So if that’s something that bothers you, you might want to skip this one. But otherwise it is a great episode and she’s just full of life and a lot of fun, and not a size aero. And we’re going to talk about why that’s important too. So please enjoy my conversation with Judith, and I’ll talk to you next week.

Katrina Ubell: Judith, yay. I’m so glad you’re here. Welcome to the podcast.

Judith Gaton: I’m so excited to be here.

Katrina Ubell: This is super fun. Super, super fun. Okay. We’ve, of course, been talking for an hour already but we’re really going to dig in, because as you were saying, we were just warming up the internet. So we’re just getting ready to have this really amazing conversation today, about foundational undergarments and why that’s important. But before we get into that, I would love it if you could introduce yourself and tell my listeners a little bit more about you.

Judith Gaton: Yeah. My name’s Judith Gaton. I am a style coach for curvy women. And I like to think of curves in a very expansive way. I think because you’re a woman, ergo you have curves on your body. So welcome to the curvy club. By training, I am a lawyer. I did defense work. So I represented insurance companies and government entities for about 10 years now. I’m going to be in my 11th year of practice. I also have a minor in fashion design. And I get to coach really amazing, badass women about their style and their thoughts about themselves and how to level up so that they can do their work in the world. So that’s me in a nutshell.

Katrina Ubell: Yay. So good. And when we first met, five years ago, you were kind of a little bit on the side helping some women with style, just for fun. And I think you were sometimes making dresses for people, like Bespoke kind of stuff. And it’s been so fun just being friends with you over the last five years, seeing this all blossom and develop, and you really hitting your groove. Because I would actually … This is a little off subject, but I would love it if you would just explain a little bit about the journey that you took in going into law, because fashion has always really been where your heart is. And I think it’s important, just because there’s lots of people who end up doing things that isn’t really where their heart is.

Katrina Ubell: I think it’s a little bit of a cautionary tale, but also I think that some people will really see themselves in it or maybe see other people that they know in it. And i think it’s a good story.

Judith Gaton: Yeah. I think it’s important for lady lawyer, lady doctors to talk to each other about their journey. We have a weird adage for people who do insurance defense work, it’s like how the hell did you end up here. No one plans for this. How the hell did you end up here? And everyone has a funny story.

Judith Gaton: So I think it is good to have these conversations. I actually went to school originally to be a fashion designer. I loved it. I was in love with it. It was my passion. And then I had a professor who told me that I was technically perfect, which for those of you who are type a’s, that sounds like a lovely thing. But she also said, “You’re technically perfect, but you’re really boring. No one’s every going to buy anything from you.” Which I think was well intended at the time. But to my poor little 20-something year old brain it was devastating.

Judith Gaton: So I decided, well I’m really good at research. I’m really smart. I should be a lawyer. And I was super encouraged by my family, who was very worried about me at the time. “Yes. You should be a lawyer. You’ve always been good at those things. It’ll come easy to you. It’ll be easier.” Which makes no sense whatsoever in retrospect. But at the time-

Katrina Ubell: Well and also can we just back up for a second, because in your family you’re the first lawyer. Am I correct in saying that?

Judith Gaton: Yeah. I’m the first lawyer, the first person with a graduate degree, really the first to go all the way through school. The first time through traditional routes. I’m the first.

Katrina Ubell: So they, of course, would be like, “Ooh. That sounds like a great idea. Yes. Our daughter,” or our sister or whoever, “She’s going to be a lawyer.” I could see how they would fall into that, thinking that … it’s like instant success. Right? Like, “You’ll be a lawyer.”

Judith Gaton: Yeah, it wasn’t just success for me. Because I come from a Puerto Rican family, so it was success for the whole family.

Katrina Ubell: Yeah. Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Judith Gaton: So if I do this, then everyone has arrived.

Katrina Ubell: Yes. Right. Exactly.

Judith Gaton: No pressure. No pressure.

Katrina Ubell: Right. So you decide to go to law school.

Judith Gaton: Yeah. I go to law school. It’s so funny. This is sort of full circle, was my wake up call something needs to change. So I go through law school. I stop taking care of myself. And so many people who have gone through medical school, y’all understand this journey as well. I stopped taking care of myself. I put on weight. I think I gained 60 pounds in my first year of law school. I was just emotional eating, and eating to stay awake. So there was a lot of that going on.

Judith Gaton: It’s so interesting. So when I took the bar exam, I actually studied and I was in a cave. So for three months I studied from 4:00 a.m. to the night, because I only wanted to take it once. I swore to myself I would only take it one time. In the middle of this I get horrible strep throat to where they want to hospitalize me. And I bargain with the doctor. I’m like, “Please, please don’t.” So I got a note, my prescription. I had saved it somewhere where it says, “No studying.” That was the prescription that was handed to me, which is really funny.

Judith Gaton: And then I break my nose because I face plant into my own hand because I was staying up to late studying, because I wasn’t listening to doctor’s orders. And full circle journey, I finally pass the bar. I have an interview. It’s my first really major, important job interview. And I go to put on my good black pants and they don’t fit. And it was this devastating moment where I looked around and I was like, “Oh shit. I’m in trouble.”

Katrina Ubell: Had you just been in denial at that point, about the weight gain, do you think?

Judith Gaton: Totally in denial, operating like a brain without a body, which so many of my clients experience that. It’s like well my brain is what matters. I’m so smart. I’m so smart. I’m so intelligent. I don’t really need to worry about that. That’s not important. Which is completely and utter caca. This is me trying not to curse. Complete and utter caca. But it took that moment where I was like, “Oh yeah. Remember, you have a body. Oh remember, you have a belly and you have legs and you have breasts. And we need to take care of the body that supports the brain that you house, otherwise we can’t do any of the stuff that you have set out to do.”

Katrina Ubell: Right. So what did you do?

Judith Gaton: I started with a bra. Well first I ran to Target to try and find pants, and then I ran to Lane Bryant to try to find pants.

Katrina Ubell: Oh geez. Okay.

Judith Gaton: Went to my interview-

Katrina Ubell: You’re like, “Okay. Here we go.”

Judith Gaton: Yeah. Changed in the bathroom. Got to my interview, did not get that job. Thank god. What a mess that would’ve been. But anyway, then I realized something had to change. And I didn’t have a whole lot of money at the time, because, obviously, fresh out of law school student. So the important thing was to start with my bras and undies.

Katrina Ubell: Yeah. How did you know that that’s what you needed? Because of your fashion background?

Judith Gaton: Because of my fashion background. But I also, I think, just from a practical standpoint and a logic standpoint, I knew that no matter what I purchased, even if it fit me, if I was super lumpy and bumpy underneath it wouldn’t look right and I would just feel more like shit.

Katrina Ubell: Yeah. Totally. Right. Exactly. Exactly. And I think it’s just really important to … Here’s the deal. You’re amazing no matter what size you are. But I do think it’s hard for people who’ve struggled with their weight or maybe their bodies don’t look exactly the way they’d like them to, because there are plenty of thin women who still wish they didn’t have excess skin or cellulite or flabby arms or whatever. It’s not necessarily about where you are compared to the BMI or whatever. But I think so many people who are style experts, stylists out there in the world, are rocking traditionally attractive, or what’s traditionally considered attractive body. And when you don’t identify with that for whatever reason, it can start to feel like that’s not for people like me, or I don’t get to feel that way. Or even if you work with someone like that and they really help you, you’re constantly comparing yourself to what that stylist looks like. And it can be a really miserable experience.

Katrina Ubell: So one thing that I think is so awesome about you is that you’re like, “Literally that doesn’t matter at all.” You’re a woman who has a large chest size, and you’re like, “Yeah, and I’m rocking it every day.” You need a bra that fits, people. And I think it really says a lot. It kind of takes away a lot of the excuses that we have where we’re just like, “Well sure, if I looked like her I’d look great all the time too,” or, “I wouldn’t have a problem shopping, or, “I’d want to feel stylish.” But because I don’t, and whatever the laundry list of problems that we identify in ourselves, in our bodies is, we don’t think we deserve that. We don’t know where to start. So maybe people say, “Oh, I just hate shopping.” Well you hate shopping if you don’t know how to properly find clothing that fits you.

Katrina Ubell: And as you said, it doesn’t matter if it fits you, it’s not going to look good if you don’t have those foundational garments. So I just wanted to put that out there. I just think there’s something to be said for someone who is not the traditional size zero stylist coming on and being like, “Look, it’s so easy to find great fitting items.”

Judith Gaton: Yeah. I just want to throat punch those people.

Katrina Ubell: Yeah, right. I know. There are plenty of people who can’t just go to the store, any mass market store, and find things that fit. And even though we know we can go to tailors and we really should, and all of that stuff to just make it fight right, for so many of us it’s like that’s a failure. We think the problem to be solved is the body, not getting the clothes to fit us. As though the clothes are good and we are bad.

Judith Gaton: And I think that is … To speak to a few of your points. I think it’s important for people to see that you … and see through me. Not only just because of my size, because I am a size 20. I love to tease my clients who are really stuck on, “Well beauty and elegance and style start at size six.” And I’m like, “Well I’m a size 20. What do you make of that?” And just see their brain break a little and just giggle over it. It’s all rubbish. It’s all made up.

Judith Gaton: But I think the important part of seeing me in particular is not only am I curvy or fluffy or whatever, fill in the adjective. But I’m also a Latina. I’m also curly haired. I wear glasses. I can’t see without them. I’ve been wearing them since I was four. All these things that are not traditionally considered beautiful or elegant or stylish, I have at least … For some of my gals I’m a woman who they can relate to on some level. And what I want all of them to hear, what I want all of your listeners to hear is, really change your visual diet. A lot of you want to get stylish. You want to feel confident. You want to feel beautiful, elegant, fill in the adjective that resonates with you. But a lot of times you’re following people that are so far removed from the way you look that it’s actually not helpful.

Judith Gaton: And what kicks in is what I call rebellious resistance. So you’re seeing an image of someone who doesn’t look like you, as a means of “motivation.” But what happens is you feel a little bit of shame. And as a result of that shame, you engage in these little rebellious acts against yourself. So if you see someone and they’re aspirationally thinner than you, instead of you being motivated to “get thin yourself,” you end up eating more, eating off your plan, dressing frumpy, doing low key little rebellious sabotage acts because you’re having this resistance to the shame. And then as a result of that you were rebelling. But it doesn’t serve you.

Judith Gaton: So I would say the first thing is really change your visual diet. Find women who have the lumps and bumps that you have. If they’re curvy, if they’re short, if they’ve got your hair texture-

Katrina Ubell: They got a big butt. If their thighs are big, whatever.

Judith Gaton: Yes.

Katrina Ubell: Large chested. Find people who look like that, right? Yeah.

Judith Gaton: Find people who look like that. We talk about coloring your plate in terms of getting all kinds of veggies and fruits, same thing with your visual diet. So whoever you’re following, change that shit up, because it’ll be so good for your brain to normalize that different bodies look lie. So by the time you look at yourself in the mirror and you don’t that pantie and that bra up-level, you’re not so unfamiliar to yourself that it’s a shock to the system. Because if you’re only following … and I love my fellow stylists. Don’t get me wrong, I think they’re lovely people. But if you’re only following people that are super aspirational, the opposite of what you’re intending might kick in. And that’s just something to notice and be aware of.

Katrina Ubell: Yeah. I love that. I think that that is so important. I recently had one of my masters live events and in the chat we were talking about whatever was going on. And in the chat one of the women wrote that she’s a dermatologist so she sees people’s real bodies all day, every day. And it’s so helpful for her, because she isn’t constantly … Her visual diet is what average people look like. And so, for her, she isn’t thinking average people look like this total airbrushed model on some ad or whatever, on social that you’re following, or things like that. She is seeing actual, real people.

Katrina Ubell: And I think it’s actually really great to just recognize how much that helps you, if you have that opportunity to really just get a sense of you know what, most women have whatever the thing is that you have, a belly pooch or whatever it is. And then you can stop telling yourself that that’s wrong or that that’s not okay.

Judith Gaton: Yeah. We have so many ambitious, amazing women who have their goal lists held hostage to, “Well when I lose the weight, then I will.”

Katrina Ubell: Yeah. Exactly. Totally.

Judith Gaton: And if we could just free you up, and your body’s not a problem to be solved, then what are you going to go do?

Katrina Ubell: Right. Exactly. And I think sometimes the distraction of the body is keeping us from recognizing that maybe we don’t know what it is that we want to do, right? We’re like, “I just want this to be over with. And it’s like, great, what would you do if the weight struggle were over with? And they’re like, “I have no idea. I don’t know what I would do, just not worry about my weight anymore.” And there is something to be said for the peace that comes with that. But it’s also nice to have something else that you’re wanting to do, right? Wanting to show up in a certain way, wanting to accomplish something maybe, or just maybe wanting to enjoy your life more because you just feel more comfortable being who you are. And stopping thinking that the way for you to really be able to be comfortable in your life or really enjoy your life is to have a different body.

Judith Gaton: Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. If having a different body was not it, then what? And I think the question … Seriously, if you can’t answer the then what, then that’s where the work lies, not in trying to do something to your body.

Katrina Ubell: Right. Exactly. So let’s talk about foundational undergarments, because they really, really are important. I feel like I remember watching an Oprah way back in the day where they had, I don’t know if it was the Nordstrom people or whatever, came and fitted everyone in the audience with a new bra. And there was a woman who was like, “I’m still wearing a nursing bra and my baby is eight years old,” or something like that. And they were just kind of showcasing how so many women, A, don’t have a properly fitting bra. B, their bra is just worn out or they need something new and what don’t pay attention to it.

Katrina Ubell: What I love about this is that yes there might be certain people in your life who see you in this, these bra and underwear or whatever else that you wear underneath your clothes. But most people won’t. So the clothes that you wear on the outside are something that we’ll talk about maybe on a different episode. But what you’re wearing on the inside really is more for you. And I think that that’s really, really important, to get connected to how can I feel good. I think a lot of people think, “Yeah, I don’t really wear underwire bras because they’re so uncomfortable.” Well isn’t it also possible to find a really good, supportive bra, underwire or not, that is comfortable? That needs to be the goal.

Judith Gaton: Yeah. Oh my gosh. I love to talk bras and undies. It’s one of the first things we do in style master class together, which sounds a little weird. But here’s why, in terms of a meta mindset reason. I also have an aunt who thinks it’s really weird that I love to talk about this. So this is for you, Thea, if you listen to it.

Judith Gaton: So here’s what’s so beautiful about starting with foundation garments. One, yes, you’re the only person, really, who is going to see this regularly. This is just a secret between you and you, that you share. And it’s really amazing for your relationship with yourself to start with something as small as your bra or your panties, to build that rapport with yourself. Because this is just for you. And even for my gals who go commando. Again, just for you. This is just about you and you.

Judith Gaton: So when we start from that place and we think of it that way, then the excuse is minimized at, “Well I’m the only one who sees it. Why does it really matter?” Well you matter, the way you view yourself. The way you take care of yourself matters. And then we can drop into feelings. And I think a lot of my brainy women who are bad asses, who have worked their butts off, they get to this place where their brain is the thing that only matters so they stop paying attention to physical sensation in their body.

Judith Gaton: So one of the ways to bring the physical sensation back up is just to pay attention. And this is sort of a little challenge for all of you who are listening. For the next week I want you to pay attention to how your bra and your panties fit. Don’t make any allowances for any little bits of discomfort. And do this for a week and you will suddenly be very aware, not only of how ill-fitting your undergarments probably are, but you’ll also suddenly be aware of how ill-fitting your clothing is. And you’ll look around and be like, “Oh my gosh, why am I running around like a hot mess? What is happening?” But start with your bras and your undies.

Judith Gaton: Notice, when you’re doing what I call this little wiggle dance, if you’re trying to suddenly adjust your bra strap all day and you have this little dance move you do to accommodate it without touching it. Or you’re trying to shove your bra band back down. That’s a whole little dance. If you’re trying to re-roll your panties over your belly roll, but do it low key so people don’t know you’re reaching into your pants, you got a problem. If you’re trying to slide out of a chair to unpick a wedgie without people noticing that you have a wedgie, you got a fitting problem.

Judith Gaton: So just spend some time becoming aware of all these physical things that are going on, just like you would pay attention to, in terms of your hunger. Is this physical hunger or is this emotional hunger? I want you to do the same with your clothing. Is this a physical discomfort? So notice all those ill-fitting things. But then secondly, notice is there some emotional discomfort that I’m also ignoring, in terms of how I’m feeling about myself? Am I feeling frumpy? Am I feeling shame? Am I feeling guilt because I know I should invest but I haven’t? Fill in, insert negative emotion.

Judith Gaton: Start to pay attention to feeling in an expansive way, just like with hunger. I want you to do that with your clothes. Is there physical discomfort or is there emotional discomfort? Is it a matter of me just changing my panties and my bra? Or do I need to sort out some thoughts I’m having about myself? And a great way to bring up those thoughts is to suddenly become aware of all these physical discomforts that you’ve been ignoring.

Katrina Ubell: I love that. Yeah. That’s so good. You know what actually just came to mind? And I wonder what you think about this. I was thinking about how so many women wear ill-fitting bra, so their breasts are saggy, droopy. And I wonder, when you get a properly fitted bra your breasts are usually more lifted. It’s just a different shape. And I wonder what you think about … do some women on purpose … And by on purpose I mean maybe consciously but also could be just more subconsciously, kind of choose an iller, ill-fitting … iller. Is that a word? Less well fitting bra in order to minimize attention to their bodies. Kind of like, “If I get a properly fitted bra, then the way my clothes fit, maybe I’ll draw a little more attention to myself and I’ll like that.

Katrina Ubell: So the frumpier I look, the less likely I am to get that attention I don’t want.

Judith Gaton: Oh, it happens a lot, especially, let’s say, if you developed early. I was probably … I feel like I never was a B cup or a C cup. I went from a training bra to a D cup, that’s what it felt like. Obviously that’s not true. But to my remembering self that’s what it felt like. So for a lot of my ladies who are heavy chested or developed early, you’ll notice there’s this body language of hunching forward, as if you could shrink your breasts by moving them to your back, which doesn’t actually happen.

Judith Gaton: But that slumping, can I press myself inward enough to shrink myself. And the opposite actually is what happens, is your chest will actually appear larger, number one. But it doesn’t deter the male gaze. It doesn’t deter people who are lecherous. So we have to remember the way it works. Our actions cannot prevent someone from taking any action, as much as we wish that were the case. So trying to shrink ourselves, metaphorically and physically, to avoid attention. It’s never going to work. It’s not successful.

Judith Gaton: I’ve had people say really, really lecherous, gross things to me when I was in my jammies, wearing a minimizer bra. So it’s not a good deterrent. I want to acknowledge it though as completely valid. And when you develop those coping skills, because let’s say you’ve had some sort of trauma occur or when you were younger that was the best coping skill you had, I love you, I want to acknowledge it and validate it. I see you. But you’re a grown up now and we have so many better tools that we can offer you, rather than you trying to shrink and play small, physically and metaphorically. We can find you a minimizer bra that fits beautifully. We can ensure that … maybe you don’t want to show cleavage. Well you don’t have to. It’s not a requirement just because you’re wearing a good fitting bra.

Judith Gaton: So a lot of the things that we think will happen as a result of wearing good foundation garments that actually fit, I think we should call up all those fears. Look at them, understand them. But then question the voracity of them, one by one by one by one.

Katrina Ubell: Yeah. I think that that is why a lot of people, a lot of women end up not having proper fitting bras. It’s just like, “Ooh, but then when I do that, then I look this certain way.” Or it could be then, “Oh, but if I do that, then all my V-necks are too deeply cut.” But then we just need … then we have to adjust what we’re wearing, not settle for the ill-fitting bra.

Judith Gaton: Exactly. I think too, there’s sort of the fear for other people’s responses to our bodies, which is normal and natural. I know people who are going through the weight loss process often fear, “Well people are going to notice. What are they going to say?” So this happens a lot when you up-level your bras. I think the statistic is 85% of women are wearing the wrong bra size. And I think it’s a little bit of attempting to hide. But I also think there’s some drama about the sizes. So what does it mean to be this band size? That’s too big. Well what’s too big? “Well somebody told me that was too big.” Or I heard this rap song in the 90s and I’m supposed to have a 36, and I’m actually a 40. There’s all these thoughts. “Oh, that cup size is too big.” Or, “There’s no way I could be that cup size.” I hear that a lot.

Judith Gaton: I had a client yesterday, she swore she was a B-cup. She swore she was a B-cup. And I’m like, “I don’t think you’re a B-cup. I’m looking at you. I can pretty much tell you’re not a B-cup.” “I’m a B-cup.” “All right, well let’s measure and I’ll try different calculators. And if I’m wrong, not a problem. But I don’t think I am.” So sure enough she ends up being a D-cup. And she’s comfortable enough to take off her shirt and show me. And I’m like, “Does this happen? Are you having a rolling cup?” Yes. “Is your strap falling off?” Yes. “Are you having to shove your breasts back into the cup at the end of the day?” Yes. That bra is too small for you.

Katrina Ubell: Yeah. Yeah. But you’re right though, with the sizing. Similar with our clothing sizes, we have this whole mental mind game, so many of us, about what the size is. And I think that that’s an undoing, a reeducating yourself of literally … I just love what you say, the clothes are auditioning for us. The bras are auditioning for you. They’re like, “Am I the right one? Am I going to support you the way you want to be supported?” Rather than us going, “I’ve got to stuff my body into this bra that I’ve decided is the correct size.”

Judith Gaton: Yeah, and I think that’s a huge game changer. Once you really wrap your arms around the idea like, okay I’m the leading lady in this movie. All the clothes are auditioning for me. Then just some clothes are not going to fit the bill. They didn’t meet the character’s requirements. They didn’t meet your fitting requirements. We want things to fit flush against your skin. Nothing should be digging into you to the point of pain. This whole idea that beauty is pain is utter nonsense. So we don’t want your straps digging into your shoulders. We don’t want your boobs popping out the bottom of the cup. None of that should be occurring. That’s just a sign that this cast member needs to be re-cast.

Katrina Ubell: Yeah. I love that. You know what it really is, it’s like taking all the drama out. It’s like this one just doesn’t fit. That doesn’t mean anything about you. But we’re like, “No. It does,” because of whatever way that we were shamed. Or like you said, the song that we heard. For me, it was probably in 17 Magazine I probably read something when I was 14 about bra sizes or something. And here I am 45 and it’s still sticking in my head.

Judith Gaton: Oh, totally. 100%. Or your formative, years, who did you admire? What was their breast size? That’s going to all factor in. And the stories I hear from women, the stuff we hold on to, it’s so interesting when we start talking about bras and panties. And I’ll have clients sometimes burst into tears and they’re like, “I don’t know what’s wrong with me. I haven’t remembered this in decades. I don’t know why it’s coming up now.” And I’m like, “This is all connected.”

Katrina Ubell: Yeah. Yeah. It’s a bigger deal than you think. Now what about there are plenty of women who are … well first of all, maybe there’s women who don’t know that going and getting an actual bra fitting, and working with someone who’s certified to do that, can be super helpful. Nordstrom, all the Nordstroms have people there who can do it. And I think most communities, especially at least moderate to larger size ones will have some sort of lingerie store where you can go and get a fitting too. And they have normal … it’s not all racy lingerie, necessarily. But an undergarment store for women. And that can be really good as well.

Katrina Ubell: Just to share a story that I’m remembering, when I got my first bra I think my mom took me to K-Mart or some place. And whatever little thing we got-

Judith Gaton: Did you get a Playtex or a Cross My Heart?

Katrina Ubell: Oh my God, I think it was Cross My Heart. And it literally did not fit me at all. Literally, just the cup shape was not the shape of my breasts, my developing breasts. And so of course it was super uncomfortable and I didn’t wear it. And I think … I don’t know how my mom got this idea or whatever, or somebody maybe told her to take me to this small, little lingerie shop. And that was the … Honestly, I was so grateful, even as a young girl. I don’t remember exactly how old I was. It was a little embarrassing. But then when they helped me to find something that actually fit me and was comfortable, I remember just being like, “Oh, okay.” Because I had been like, “Oh my God, I have to wear this horrible bra for the rest of my life?” I was looking forward to the experience, and with that K-Mart one it was just the worst. So it really is such a gift. That was just my introduction to if you really want to find the right bra for you, you need someone to help you.

Katrina Ubell: Now you’re able to help people online though, right? You don’t necessarily have to go anymore to the store?

Judith Gaton: It’s sort of like … I’m like, “The amount of breasts I’ve seen online, it’s so fun.” Which sounds really dirty, but that’s totally not what happens.

Katrina Ubell: Listen, a lot of our listeners have seen a lot of breasts too.

Judith Gaton: Right. Hello. I feel like I’m part of this elite club.

Katrina Ubell: You have a lot in common with them. Right.

Judith Gaton: You all see them for a different reason than I do, but yeah. I definitely do virtual fittings. And it sometimes takes a few rounds. And I want to encourage all of you, if you decide to start trying on bras and ordering them and figuring out what works for you and what doesn’t work for you, it’s a process. It doesn’t happen overnight. You might luck out and on the first try you find a winner winner chicken dinner. But everybody’s breasts are shaped so differently. And gravity does its work. If you’ve breastfed, it does its work. If you’ve lost weight, its done its work. If you’ve lost weight, gained weight, lost weight, its done its work.

Judith Gaton: So I want all of you to just allow it to be a process that could be fun. If you go into the idea that this is just going to be amusing because you have no idea what the hell’s going to work or not work, it’s such a smoother process for yourself than thinking you have to find the one holy grail of bras. It’s going to take maybe a few tries and a few different sizes, a few different cup shapes, because not all cup shapes are created equal and they’re not recommended for all breast shapes or types or sizes. And I can jump into the specifics of that if you’d like. But just let this be an experiment. And then you can go into it that way and you’ll have a much easier time than if you were trying to force this into happening perfectly.

Katrina Ubell: Well and the other thing too that’s important to note is that bras wear out. So it might have nothing to do with your body. The bra wears out over time. And then you still should be remeasured, even if you’re like, “Oh, nothing’s really changed. My weight hasn’t changed.” But like you said, your body might have changed. It might be a little different. If it’s the same, go with the same size or whatever, that’s fine.

Katrina Ubell: So speaking to that, I feel like it’s just a slippery slope. So here’s what people need to know, is that you are kind of my consultant. I’ll order some things and sometimes I just know I like this and I’m keeping it. But then I’ll order some dress. I feel like it’s always dresses. I’m like, “What do we think about this? Is this good? What do I do here? I need help.” But I feel like we’ve also … Well we definitely have had multiple lengthy underwear conversations.

Katrina Ubell: And so what I feel like happens though with underwear is you’re in a really good place for a while. So say bras and panties, you’re in a good place for a while. And then it’s like this gradual slippery slope where you’re like, “Oh, maybe these are just riding around or I’m getting a wedgie just because, it’s just these jeans that I’m wearing.” Or, “It’s just when I wear these ones with this thing that I have a problem.” And it could be such a slow, gradual progression that you don’t notice for a really long time that your underwear are wearing out and you need to go buy some new ones.

Katrina Ubell: So by the time you realize, you’re like, “Oh my gosh, what am I even doing? These are completely trashed. I’m embarrassed.” Like if someone willed me, God forbid, into the trauma bay, I’d be embarrassed for somebody to see this. Do you have a timeline, like every year you should be at least reevaluating? What are your recommendations on how to not let it get so bad?

Judith Gaton: Yeah. I had a client once who was like, “I’m good for underwear. I’m good for underwear.” I’m like, “Hmm. Okay.”

Katrina Ubell: “I don’t believe you.”

Judith Gaton: “I don’t believe you. I don’t believe anything you say. But okay. You like it. I love it.”

Katrina Ubell: Yeah.

Judith Gaton: So she gets on our call and she’s like, “I have to show you something.” I was like, “Okay.” So she undoes her pants and she lifts up her shirt and there’s this giant hole in her panties where they had just ripped. So there’s this little thread of elastic, all this belly, and then what’s left of the panty. And we were dying laughing. She’s like, “I think it’s time.” I’m like, “Yeah. Yeah it’s time.”

Katrina Ubell: Yeah, it’s time.

Judith Gaton: So here are some things to look for. Actually I want to talk about how this works and why this happens. So for anyone whose ever had a ball of rubber bands and you just keep adding the rubber bands, you keep adding the rubber bands. And then it gets old and it gets brittle and they start to break. And they’re sort of elasticize qualities go away and it’s just nasty and kind of gross. That’s what happens to elastic. Elastic ages. That’s what’s in your panties. That is what is in your bra. It will age. It will grow brittle. And the more you warm up fibers like elastic or anything stretchy, think about them loosening and getting slack. So that’s why sometimes you wear a pair of jeans that feel great in the morning, and by the afternoon they’re falling off your butt and you have no idea what’s happened. The elastic has warmed up.

Judith Gaton: So with your panties, with your bra, if you’re wearing the same bra every day you’re actually ruining the structure of it because you’re never allowing that elastic to go back into place. If you have underwear that’s several years old and let’s say you’ve gained weight, lost weight, and you’ve stretched that elastic over time, it’s gotten old. It wears out. Nothing is wrong with your body. It just means your undies are old, and that’s okay.

Katrina Ubell: Right. It’s like you wouldn’t to force yourself to eat moldy food.

Judith Gaton: Right.

Katrina Ubell: It’s like, they’re old. They need to go away now. Yeah.

Judith Gaton: Right. We wouldn’t eat strawberries that are covered in mold, that would be a little weird and a little gross. Why are we doing this with our panties? The other thing I would say, which is funny about panties, is there’s this big movement towards moisture-wicking panties, which may not always work for everyone because they get a little funky. Again, maybe it’s not your body producing the odor, you just need to wash these types of underwear a different way.

Katrina Ubell: Okay. So you may … If you like that kind of underwear but you’re not liking the funk or the washability or whatever, you just need to figure out a different way of laundering?

Judith Gaton: Right. And sometimes your panties just don’t match the garment you’re wearing. Again, that doesn’t mean anything’s wrong with your body, but maybe we don’t wear super thin, thin panties under a pair of jeans if they’re going to get moved around and you’re going to end up with a wedgie at the end of the day. Maybe wear something with a little more structure. Or if we’re going to be wearing a dress that is a little more form fitting, maybe we don’t wear the giant panties that are a little too tight around our butt, that’s going to show through. We just change our panties. We don’t do anything to our body.

Katrina Ubell: Yeah. Well what I feel like this is reminding me of is there’s just a lack of education for so many women, me included. I feel like I’m still learning so much about which underwear would be the good underwear to wear under those jeans. And then, more specifically for you, there may be a little bit more blanket recommendations. But you have to figure out for your body type, for the look you’re going for, your style, whatever, what is actually going to work for you. And then you choose your underwear based on what you’re going to wear for the day as well.

Katrina Ubell: Because I feel like a lot of people think, “Oh, that’s just for people who are into fashion,” or, “That’s for people who are into that stuff or good with that stuff. I don’t really care. I’m low maintenance. This isn’t a thing for me,” or whatever. But it should be a thing for you, because you should educate yourself on how to properly clothe and support yourself.

Judith Gaton: Right. And there’s some practical concerns. As I tell a lot of my clients who are staunch feminists or very brainy and they’re like, “This is not important.” But there are some health risks involved with wearing underwear that don’t fit you. You can get prone to yeast infections if it’s too much moisture collection. For some women, they cannot wear anything but cotton. Those are things we need to be conscious of. If you’re postpartum, your lady parts may not have shifted back the way they once were. We need to accommodate for that so we’re not pinching any of your lady parts. And I’ll just say that to be polite.

Judith Gaton: Things move. Things shift. It’s actually really not good for you to wear things that are too tight. There’s horror stories out there, especially for my people who love to wear Spanx or extra pairs of Spanx, of incidents of neuropathy around your belly area and losing feeling and having tingling sensations for weeks because you’re wearing things that don’t fit you. So there are some things we need to be conscious of and careful of and mindful of, for practical reasons. And then, on top of that, just for your basic self-esteem. It doesn’t feel good to wear things that physically are uncomfortable.

Katrina Ubell: Yes. Right. Just plain and simple, there it is right there.

Judith Gaton: Yeah. You wouldn’t let someone go around pinching you all day. Why do you allow that of your underwear?

Katrina Ubell: Yeah. So do you know one thing that I think that comes up for me, and I’m just going to admit this for everybody, is I … You’re not going to be surprised what I’m going to say, because we’ve had this conversation, at least most of it. If you are someone who has a little extra in the lower belly area, wearing a boy short style or a bikini style underwear often creates creasing and fold over, and it’s just not very comfortable. So you’re like, “Listen, you just need a higher rise underwear.” So I’m like, “Yes, makes logical, complete sense.” But then I see these things and they look so big to me that I’m like, “Oh my God, that is what grandmas wear.” I feel like it’s kind of embarrassing. Now I 100% recognize logically that this is a thought in my mind. But it still feels like that’s not … like you’ve given in if you have to wear underwear like that. So help me.

Judith Gaton: Okay. This comes up a lot. People are like, “Those are some granny ass panties. I will not wear those.”

Katrina Ubell: Right.

Judith Gaton: So here’s what I want to say, never judge a book by its cover. So I want all of you not to judge the fit of something or how it’s going to look on your body by just looking at it, because that’s never an accurate assessment. It’s just not.

Katrina Ubell: And I know that when it comes to close. I’ve seen a dress on a hangar and I’m like, “That is the ugliest thing I’ve ever seen.” And then I put it on, I’m like, “Oh. How is this the same thing?” So it’s the same thing with underwear is what you’re saying.

Judith Gaton: It’s the same thing with underwear. So a lot of us will see what we call “granny panties” and just be shocked and horrified that someone would even suggest that we should wear such things. However, I’ve had multiple clients now who are like, “We just need a high-rise. We need something with a little bit of a front panel to get a little bit of control there,” so you actually have some support, especially if you’ve lost weight or have loose skin or have had a C-section or any kind of thing in that area. When I had my myomectomy I needed a little bit more front panel support. So we want a little bit of that, just for our own comfort sake.

Judith Gaton: But I’ve had them put them on and they’re like, “Oh, hello. Hello you.” And I’m like, “Right?” You suddenly feel like Betty Grable and you’re walking around with a little strut and you want to put high heels on. And you’re like, “These are not your momma’s granny panties. Something’s different.” So don’t judge a book by its cover. Really try them on. It’s okay if you have thoughts about them being granny panties. And maybe you’ll have your Betty Grable moment too. It’s totally okay.

Judith Gaton: The other thing is, they come in beautiful colors. And we’ll just call them granny panties. Granny panties come in such beautiful colors and fabrics and prints now. It’s not like we’re buying a pack of girdles at K-Mart. That is not the situation anymore. We all have way more means than that, more ability than what, way more resources. So just maybe we’ll call them granny panties. We can own that. But put them on. Put them on before you decide whether or not you’re going to wear them.

Katrina Ubell: Okay. So another question. See, this is me getting all technical with the stuff.

Judith Gaton: Yeah, no. Talk to me. Let’s do it.

Katrina Ubell: Okay. But I feel like these are the things we need to know. So I have purchased … Also the size. You’re like, “Well I don’t know. I guess this probably makes sense.” You put them on to try them on. You’re like, “Yeah. Okay. I think these will work.” Then you, of course, take off the tags and everything, and wear them. And then by the end of that day you’re like, “Oh, it’s a hell no with these.” It’s one of those things where you put on the shoe at first and you’re like, “Yeah, this is good.” And by the end of the day you’re like, “I will never wear these again. That didn’t work.”

Katrina Ubell: Do we just have to say that’s part of the price of doing business? It’s just sometimes you’re going to have spent $40 on a pair of panties, they didn’t work, you wore them once. Don’t even try to salvage it. There’s nothing to be done. Just move on.

Judith Gaton: Yes, and I would also use that as an opportunity, because that’s a gold mine of information. So we will have gained a ton of information with those $40. So it would be money well spent if we stop before flinging them off. So right before you’re about to fling them off and be like, “Get these suckers off me,” take a moment and evaluate what has gone wrong here. Is it I suddenly have a wedgie and I need to pick something with a fuller booty? Is it that my thigh is now being cut off so I need to have a higher cut thigh? Is it that they rolled when I bent forward? Is it that they were cutting into me and I had to rub my belly at the end of the day? Is it that the crotch is actually not wide enough and I felt like my lips were being cut all day? This is a gold mine of information.

Judith Gaton: So pause and find out what has gone wrong here, so I know how to tweak my next purchase.

Katrina Ubell: Yeah. And I think that for someone like me who’s like, “But how would I even know?” You look at all these underwear and you’re like, “How would I even know?” But for someone who wants to do the … Some people want to go and do all the research themselves, but not everybody does. Some people are just like, “Someone just fricking help me find a pair of underwear that fits.” That’s exactly what you do, right? Because even if the same thing like what I just described happens, you’re like, “Okay, tell me all of these things. Okay, now I can help you to find some different options. It’s like informed decision making.

Judith Gaton: Right. So we diagnose. What happened? What went wrong there? Where does it hurt? Where’s your booboo? What is happening so that we can plan for the next, what I sort of call, a garment pull. So the next time I shop for you for underwear, we’re going to factor all of that in. You actually hate boy shorts. You don’t like cheeky underwear. If you decide to wear a thong, we’re going to have to find something with a wider crotch or a higher rise. We’re going to play until we sort out what brand works for you, what size you are in that brand. It’s an ongoing experiment. But don’t just fling them off. We want to pause and take stock.

Katrina Ubell: Right. Okay. Well that’s actually a really, really good point. Because I think I’m just like, “Well, maybe these will be better some day and I’ll wear them with whatever.” And then I forget what that is. And then I never wear them. And then I’m like, “Why the hell do I have these still in my drawer?” And then it’s just … you’re just trying to ignore it and then some day you go through and you’re like, “Well, that was a waste.” But it’s not a waste if you actually get information from it?

Judith Gaton: Yeah. It’s not a waste. And we don’t want to keep them … This is the other thing. I find a lot of my clients accumulate underwear. It’s like time traveling from all these different eras and decades, and different body shapes and sizes in their life. So that is a great place to start, if you want to clean out your closet, if you want to get rid of things and you know you need to get free. You could start with your undie drawer and just giggle at all of the amazing things that you happen to find in there. Not every panty needs to be a period panty. You don’t need to keep those rainy day panties. We can have everything be good and fit you.

Katrina Ubell: Yeah. Yeah. It makes so much sense, right. I totally can hear what people’s objections are. They’re like, “But I’m in scrubs every day. It doesn’t really matter. I don’t want to have to do special wash for those things.” But there’s solutions to all of this, right? Maybe you’re like, “Yeah, I am going to dry mine and they’re going to wear out sooner.” Well that’s fine, but then you need to buy … make sure you buy new ones when that’s required, which might be a little earlier than people who are drip drying all their stuff.

Judith Gaton: Right. Or like I tell my clients who have that kind of drama, “Well I don’t want to have to do this and wash them all the time,” blah, blah, blah. Totally get it. Then just buy enough so that if you happen to not wash your clothes weekly and you’re getting to the bottom of the barrel, everything at the bottom of the barrel also fits you.

Katrina Ubell: Yeah. Right.

Judith Gaton: Even if you are in scrubs all day-

Katrina Ubell: Your ill-fitting underwear … right. That doesn’t have to indicate that it’s time to do laundry.

Judith Gaton: Right. The panties at the way, way back that you know damn well you should not be wearing, that should not be your sign to do your laundry. Just saying.

Katrina Ubell: Right. And it’s a really good point, like you were saying, if you’re wearing scrubs all day long you can still feel really comfortable in a proper fitting bra and properly fitting underwear.

Judith Gaton: Because y’all know that one nurse who has too tight of scrubs so you can see her panties. You know she’s got a wedgie all day. And everybody sort of winces when she walks by, because that shit looks super uncomfortable. You know the one.

Katrina Ubell: And you see the third boob hanging out. Yep. Exactly.

Judith Gaton: Y’all know the one. Think of her. She’s not comfortable. You know she’s not comfortable. Don’t do that to yourself.

Katrina Ubell: Yes. Right. And I think that is the thing that … You and I were just having this conversation the other day of in my mind I still have this association between comfort and style or things fitting properly, this idea that if you really put a lot of effort into it, even if it’s effortless, but you’re up-leveled, that discomfort is going to be involved in there somehow. So I am doing my own personal work to unravel that and divorce those two things from one another, because, as you’re always saying, you can totally be just as comfortable, if not more comfortable, wearing things that actually properly fit you.

Judith Gaton: Yeah, because the goal is not to have some sort of contraption happening underneath your clothing that you’re conscious of all day. The goal is actually to find things that fit you, set it and forget it. You should be able to put it on and forget about it. That’s how it should … And I don’t mean to should you, but that’s what we would ideally like to occur. But I think women are socialized to believe that beauty is pain, that to become beautiful we have to go through some sort of tortuous process. And that’s supported by history, right? We have feet binding. We have all kinds of body modification that happens that’s extremely painful.

Judith Gaton: So yeah, we have historical validation for this. Ever wear a whale bone corset and faint? There are fainting couches for reasons. So we have all this history to back this up. We have this thing that’s passed down to us that, “If I was in pain and discomfort, daughter, so should you be.” And it’s going to take a lot of unlearning of a lot of that. Beauty is not pain. Comfort and styled are not opposites of each other, they’re not mutually exclusive. You can be comfortable and feel good in the body you’re in, while liking what you see in the mirror. All of these are possible and we just have to unlearn and relearn a whole new set of parameters.

Katrina Ubell: I love it. Let’s just talk about one more thing, just because over the weekend you were sending me links about this. I just want to bring it up because I do think that it’s something that people don’t talk about that much. I feel like people need to know that this exists and that it’s a real thing. Because even if you’re not plus size, no matter what, you just might be someone like me where I don’t care if I was cachectic, emaciated, my thighs would still touch when I walk. It’s just how it is. So I was telling you how I really wish that hose were back in, because I don’t want my thighs sticking together. It’s just gross. I don’t like that feeling. And then I wear dresses or skirts because of that. And you were like, “No, you just need …” What are they called, slip shorts?

Judith Gaton: Slip shorts, anti-chafing shorts.

Katrina Ubell: Yeah. So I had tried those in the past and I had my objections to them. And you were like, “Well those didn’t fit you then.” Because I’d try something and then I’m like, “It didn’t work.” The end. And you’re like, “No. Here are some other options. You got to try different things.” And of course I see the parallels. This is what I’m saying all the time when it comes to weight loss, “Okay, that didn’t work. Try something else.” So I just, first of all, want people to know that that exists, because I think there are a lot of women who are like, “Maybe I would like to wear a comfortable dress, but I’m not comfortable underneath it. But I don’t want a loud swish-swish that sounds like corduroy rubbing up against itself when I’m walking by.” Or you can see the lump or the seam tourniquet, like indentation or whatever in the clothes, or things like that. So can you speak to those kinds of shorts, why they’re awesome, when someone might want to wear them.

Judith Gaton: Let’s talk about chafing season in general. Hello. Welcome. Because chafing season is upon us. So it doesn’t matter your actual weight or size. Women of all sizes and shapes, their thighs chafe. Under their arms, where their arms rub, their armpits chafe. Underneath their boobs chafe. If you have any type of belly fat and a little bit of a hangover you might experience some chafing. So hi fellow human, welcome. This is totally normal.

Judith Gaton: But I think we don’t talk about it enough, so I feel like we should normalize, “Oh, your ass chafes too? Hi.” This is all really normal. Your thighs sweat? The crack of your ass sweats? Welcome. I feel like we should talk about that more often, so I’m glad you brought it up. It’s totally normal. And there’s so many better options out there now than there used to be. A lot of times when you hear slip shorts you think of those rayon, weird-

Katrina Ubell: Yeah, like bloomers practically.

Judith Gaton: Bloomers, yeah. And they have that shh-shh when you walk.

Katrina Ubell: Yes.

Judith Gaton: That does not have to be the case anymore. A lot of times … Spanx used to be the only option, or other brands that are similar to Spanx. And then they would be too tight around your thighs, so you’d have what Katrina was referring to, that tourniquet. So there are options that are non-shape wear, that are specifically for the purpose of chafing protection.

Judith Gaton: So some options are, if you live in the UK, Big Bloomer company. They’re fabulous. They’re size inclusive. The Thigh Society is another really great option. A lot of women wear bike shorts. Here’s why I’m not a fan of bike shorts. You have to make sure you clean them properly, because if they are moisture wicking in the way that bike shorts are, those suckers will get funky with enough wears. So you want something that’s breathable. You want something that is a flat elastic band. This is really important. So when you look at these, you want something that’s going to lay flush against your skin, not pierce into your skin. And you want something that you can peel off and put back on with ease, which is why you want a pure slip short versus shape wear. And we’ve all had that dramatic moment where I’m going to get my Spanx back up and I’m sweaty.

Katrina Ubell: Yeah, the sausage, yeah.

Judith Gaton: Yeah.

Katrina Ubell: Sausage casing.

Judith Gaton: We don’t want that sensation, necessarily. Yeah, exactly. No sausage casing. No having to powder yourself down so that you can roll your Spanx back up. These are purely for anti-chafing.

Katrina Ubell: Yeah. This just came to me as I’m thinking about this. Do you still wear underwear under these? Or those are your underwear?

Judith Gaton: It’s completely up to you. I like to wear underwear underneath them, because I just would feel super awkward not wearing underwear. But that’s a personal thing. A lot of my clients choose not to. Some of these slip shorts do come with a gusset, so you could just open things up and handle your business.

Katrina Ubell: Oh, right. You don’t even need to pull them down. Yeah. That scares me though. I’m like that’s all fine and good until something happens and now you are walking around like you wet your pants. That’s no good.

Judith Gaton: Not a particular fan, but plenty of people are, and their pee stream, I guess, runs perfectly.

Katrina Ubell: Maybe it’s a skill.

Judith Gaton: I don’t know.

Katrina Ubell: Okay. They’re gifted in the pee stream department. Okay. All right. Okay. So I think it’s really good for people to know that, because I know for me, I’m like I would love to wear a cute dress but I want to be comfortable. And so how can I figure that out? And I think when you don’t know where to even look or you feel uncomfortable asking a salesperson or you go to the department store or whatever and the salesperson is 19. You’re like, “I’m not going to ask her. What the hell does she know about anything of this sort?” It’s just important to know where you can get that information from and get that help.

Katrina Ubell: I think so much of what you’re doing is just really actually educating women. We live in this very emotional state around all of this, around our clothes. And you’re just like, “Okay, listen. Let’s just figure out what actually works for you. And then we can work on the emotional stuff as a separate issue.” But I also want to just offer that when your underwear are falling down all day or riding up your butt crack or your bra’s just digging into you, and we all know that, that bra that that wire is up into your armpit all day or it’s just really bugging you.

Katrina Ubell: I do think that that can contribute to emotional eating or overeating. You’re just like, “I just want to feel good. I felt bad …” Even if it’s a low grade badness, but I felt uncomfortable all day. I just want to feel good. And so it’s easy to look to food, or maybe alcohol, to do that. It’s like, why don’t we just do what we can to support ourselves and make it less likely that that’s what we’re going to want to do at night, by making sure that we’re feeling awesome all of the time.

Judith Gaton: I love that you brought that up, because I have what I call bra flingers, my ladies who come home … the first thing, they cannot wait to get out of their bra. And it’s like freedom, right. And then they go eat something. Or then they go buffer with television or they go buffer on their phone. And it’s like this first outlet of relief and release at the end of their day. And it may not even be that they had a particularly bad day, they’ve just been uncomfortable physically all day.

Katrina Ubell: And when you think that that’s how you feel when you wear a bra, then you’ll settle for that. You get a new bra and you’re like, “Yeah, it’s just as uncomfortable as the other one. I guess that’s how it’s supposed to be.”

Judith Gaton: Yeah. And then maybe I just will resort to wearing sports bras that don’t really fit, and then I have a uni-boob. It all makes sense. But pay attention. Maybe even have a bad day and maybe you don’t really need to buffer. We’ve just got to figure out what’s causing you to buffer. And maybe it was the distraction of ill-fitting clothes that you’ve been messing with and were distracted by all damn day.

Katrina Ubell: Right. Right. Yeah. And I just want to make sure that it’s clear that the point of this conversation is not to give anybody listening the idea that you’re doing it wrong or it’s embarrassing, whatever your underwear looks like or things like that. It’s just more of an invitation to build that relationship with yourself, like I always talk about, but doing it through how you dress yourself. There’s so many different ways that we can be nice to ourselves and show ourselves kindness and love, and this is one of them that often really goes overlooked.

Katrina Ubell: I just want to make sure nobody’s like, “Oh my god, now it’s another thing I’m doing wrong.” It’s like, no. There’s no right or wrong here. It’s a choice. But just recognizing, you might not realize that you are actively choosing something that you don’t want, on a regular basis.

Judith Gaton: Yeah. Exactly. I talk about these in a tongue in cheek funny way because I want to normalize it for everyone. And especially we’re talking to a group of doctors, y’all know how weird bodies are. They’re weird. They’re weird. We’re all weird little creatures. We’re all asymmetrical. We all have one arm longer than the other. We all are funny and lumpy and bumpy. We’re weird creatures. And we sweat and we have bodily fluids. We’re weird.

Judith Gaton: And if we could just really come from that place of that common denominator like, “Oh, you too?” “Oh yeah, me too.” And we normalize this for each other, then we can decide from there whether or not we want to do something about it, but not from a place of shame or guilt or self loathing, but from a place of, “Okay, so if this is totally normal and this is not weird. This is just my body doing its thing.” Then I could problem solve for it. I could leave it as-is. But from a place of love and kindness and self compassion and understanding, versus a place of self loathing, guilt, or shame.

Judith Gaton: You don’t have to do a damn thing. You don’t have to wear undies if you don’t want to. You don’t have to wear a damn bra if you don’t want to. Just check in with your reasons. And that’s what we’re really inviting you into.

Katrina Ubell: Exactly. I love that. Well so you have a really, really awesome free guide that you wanted to offer everybody listening. I love the name. It’s called Bye Bye Janky Bras and Undies. So you’re definitely going to want to get this. And it’s basically a diagnostic criteria. If you have this problem with your bra, this is what you need to be looking for. If this is the issue, you need this. So for bras and underwear. It’s cute and funny, but also super, super helpful to actually figure out what to do. Because so often we’re like, “Yes. Okay. I’m on board. I need something different. But I don’t even know where to start.” So this is a really great place.

Katrina Ubell: So what is the link that they should go to, to get Bye Bye Janky Bras and Undies?

Judith Gaton: Yeah, the link is judithgaton.com/doctors.

Katrina Ubell: Okay, perfect. Doctors with an S? D-O-C-T-O-R-S? Hopefully if you’re listening to this and you’re a doctor you know how to spell doctors. I’m spelling it out. I’m so used to that. And it’s J-U-D-I-T-H G-A-T-O-N.com. And we’ll have that linked in the show notes page and stuff as well. But you’re going to for sure want this. I’m actually looking at it right now. I have it up on my screen. It’s awesome and super helpful. And you’re just going to want it. Trust me. So judithgaton.com/doctors.

Katrina Ubell: Judith, such a pleasure. I love having you as my friend. And now I love having you as a guest, to be able to help all of these amazing doctors and other listeners with their style issues. So thank you so much.

Judith Gaton: No, thank you for having me. Thank you, friend. This was fun. This was super fun.

Katrina Ubell: It was super fun, definitely. All right, thank you.

Katrina Ubell: Ready to start making progress on your weight loss goals? For lots of free help go to katrinaubellmd.com and click on free resources.