Do you ever feel like no one really understands what it’s like to be in a medical marriage? Whether you’re a doctor or you’re married to one, a lot of the challenges you face are unique to your situation.

Sara Payne is a Master-Certified Relationships Coach who specializes in helping women create rock-solid relationships with the most important people in their lives. I invited her to join us on the Weight Loss for Busy Physicians podcast to talk about this because if anyone gets it, she does.

As the wife to a doctor as well as a coach for doctor’s partners, she’s bringing both her personal and professional experience to the table. She knows what it’s like, and she also knows that there’s a better way.

She’s here to help you understand what your non-medical partner might be thinking, feeling, and experiencing in your relationship as well as how to ask for what you need, get on the same team, and stop playing the blame game.

Listen To The Episode Here:

In Today’s Episode, You’ll Learn:

  • The unique challenges that come from being in a relationship with a doctor
  • What it’s like to be married to someone in the medical field
  • Navigating feelings of guilt and shame in a marriage
  • Common issues that arise in medical marriages
  • Approaching problems as a team
  • How to stop placing blame in your relationship
  • Why it can be hard (but necessary) to give up control
  • Getting curious about your feelings

Are you tired of keeping score and feeling like your marriage is a battle? Take a breath; you’ve finally found a community of people who know what it’s like. I’m so excited for you to hear Sara’s advice and learn some new approaches to help improve your medical marriage.

If you want to continue to connect with like-minded medical professionals and get more support on your weight-loss journey, check out the Weight Loss for Doctors Only coaching program at!

If you’ve read my book, How to Lose Weight for the Last Time: Brain-Based Solutions for Permanent Weight Loss, it would mean the world to me if you would leave me a review letting other readers know what you thought! Click here to leave a review on Amazon.

Click the image below to download a handy one-page printable to

share How to Lose Weight for the Last Time with your patients!

Resources Mentioned:

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Visit Sara’s Website

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Other Episodes We Think You'll Enjoy:

Ep #370: On Being Sensitive

Ep #369: Using Delegation to Improve Your Life

Ep #368: Getting Started With Self-Compassion

Get The Full Episode Transcript

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Read the Transcript Below:

Welcome to the Weight Loss for Busy Physicians podcast. I'm your host, master certified life and weight loss coach, Katrina Ubell, M.D. This is the podcast where busy doctors like you come to learn how to lose weight for the last time by harnessing the power of your mind. If you're looking to overcome your stress, eating and exhaustion and move into freedom around food, you're in the right place. Well. Hello there, my friend. Welcome to today's podcast. Thanks for joining me. I'm really glad that you're here today. I have a guest today that I have been wanting to have on this podcast for a long, long time and I'm excited that we finally made it happen.

So I've known Sara Payne, who is a life coach for many, many years now. In fact, I believe we didn't even talk about this, but I believe I was an instructor when she first became a coach. So it was like many, many years ago. And so even back then, she was talking about who she wanted to help and she continues to do it. It was so fun to catch up with her. So she is the spouse of a doctor, and she helps people who are married to doctors with their marriage and their relationship. And I think that it's so good that there are people out there who are doing this work because, you know, you can work with anybody who helps with marriages or relationships, and that can be super, super helpful.

[00:01:36] But sometimes people don't really understand some of the nuances that come with being in a relationship with a doctor. And a lot of people don't really have sympathy. We talk about that a little bit in the episode, like people when you're like, oh, it's just so hard being married to a doctor. People are not like, oh, I feel for you. I feel so bad for you. But it really is true. It can be very, very challenging. So I wanted to invite her on because of course, there are many dual physician couples in this world and in one of those relationships myself, but also because I wanted those of you who are listening, who are in relationship in a partnership with somebody who is not a doctor, to maybe understand a little bit more about what your partner might be thinking or what they might be going through. Because I feel like, well, I know that from the other side of the relationship, there can be a lot of challenges as well. And I just really like the way that Sara approaches this type of thing.

[00:02:40] I think that it is something that, you know, one teaches us this stuff. It's just like, you know, you don't have to take a class to be a parent. You know, like, like you can just have the baby and now you're a parent. Like, you can just get into a relationship or marry somebody. There's a lot that can be learned, and it can be better. If you're not really feeling super satisfied with how things are, it really can get better. And we talk about that a little bit too. Like at first we wanted to just be maybe a little better or a little easier and then could we be open to it even being really incredible and really amazing.

So I invited Sara to come on to talk about some of the things that people who are in medical marriages in particular, struggle with, and she has some really cool ideas that you can start implementing right away to start kind of making it a little bit of a easier or smoother interaction with your partner. So please enjoy this conversation with Sara Payne and I'll talk to you next week. Sara, thank you so much for joining me today on the podcast.

[00:03:45] Oh my goodness. I'm so happy to be here.

[00:03:47] So why don't we start off with you just giving everybody a little bit of information about your background, how you came to coaching and who you help now.

[00:03:57] Yeah, so I came to coaching five years ago. I was listening to a podcast of a fellow coach, and she was explaining my problems like, better than I could. And I just thought, I have to work with this woman. And once I did, pretty shortly after that, I thought if I could help women the way that she's helped me, that would be like the dream of a lifetime. And so I did. And I'm married to a podiatrist, surgical podiatrist. And so we've been kind of lived all over the country in pursuit of his career and schooling. And so it was kind of a natural thing for me to want to help medical families.
And so that's mostly what I do. I also help, you know, anybody who can relate to that kind of lifestyle as far as like the career being like the center oftentimes of the life. And I love it. I love I think that medical families in particular, you just have to develop a certain kind of grit to get through that time and all of that training, and then they just have a lot of influence. And so it's thrilling for me to help them with their marriages in particular. And as you know, with weight loss, when you help someone lose weight, you don't just help them lose weight, you help them like it expands to like every area of your life. And it's the same with marriage. When you help them with their marriage, then it helps them with their other relationships and their relationship with themself and all of that. And so that's pretty exciting.

[00:05:35] Well, what I love about what you do is that it's obviously super helpful for somebody who is married to a doctor, you know, if that person is not a doctor, does not have a background in that, you know, I think the, you know, coming into that world and maybe trying to understand it, of course, that's super helpful. But there's many of us, including me, who are in, you know, a dual physician relationship marriage, and that can present its own challenges as well. And as I told you, I really want many of the people who are listening to this are partnered up with somebody who is not a doctor, like it's, I think, very helpful for them to hear what it's like to be with someone who's a doctor. Right? Like that's you, right? That could be right.

[00:06:20] Exactly. I mean, some of the challenges are pretty unique, right? Because there are few careers where, like, someone's life is literally on the line if the partner isn't doing what they do. And so I think there can often be this resentment, like your job always comes first, and then also this guilt and even feeling like, how dare I think that when, like, these people might not live, or at least their health would be in jeopardy, like if my partner didn't do what they do?

I know I especially in the past, I've felt that way so many times. Like, really, you're not going to come to the game that our kids have that you promised you would be at because somebody had an emergency and the or and then you feel so bad like that. You know, my husband does a lot of amputations with diabetes and stuff like that. So like this patient's losing their foot and I'm mad that my husband's not going to be there to like, watch my son score in a basketball game. There's this push pull like blame game basically. Right?

[00:07:20] I mean, I have an example that I immediately think of when you describe that, because even though, you know, I worked as a doctor, it's still like the same thing my husband's ear, nose and throat people often will be like, oh, that's great. There's no emergencies in that. And I'm like, no, it's not true. There's actually plenty of emergencies that can come up. And they don't. Thankfully, they don't seem to come up, you know, super often where it's like really, really bad. But this was many years ago when my younger two kids were really little, like my daughter. My youngest was for sure like a baby in arms, really.

You know, it was not easy to, like, get a meal made. You know, she that's that hour right where they're like, you know, cranky and want to be held and all that stuff. And it was a weekend and Matt was on call, you know, sometimes, like, it's pretty quiet when he's on call and then it's easy to sort of forget that, you know, at any time he could have to go in. So we were making dinner. I decided to make a dinner that did require more work because he would be home. He'd be able to help with the kids, with the baby in particular. And so in the middle, literally in the middle of me doing that, he gets a call. And it's not just a call. It is one of the calls where he's on the phone, talking and racing around, putting his shoes on, grabbing his keys and like, waving as he's still on the phone, going into the car like it's like, no, this is an emergency right now.

[00:08:41] I'm racing to the hospital kind of a thing, and I was so annoyed. It's like, are you kidding me? I mean, that's that is a very nice representation of what I was thinking. I was that's the PG version. The PG version. I was so irritated, like, can I just make a meal? You know, like, I just I'm feeling so angry and sorry for myself. Honestly, I think I had so much self-pity that like, this is my life and this is what I have to go through, and other people don't have to deal with this and all these things.

So we get through it all. Everyone survives. He comes home a few hours later, and he tells me that it was like an elderly man who was having a severe nosebleed, and so he went and helped him and got it all stopped and everything. And then this man tells him, please tell your wife. I said, I'm sorry, because this happened in the middle of the dinner hour. And I then felt so much shame. I felt so bad. You know, here's this little man, you know. Yeah. Who really needed his help. And he saved this guy's life. Matt saved his life. And then he even had the wherewithal to think, to apologize to me, to thank me like I had a choice. But regardless, you know. Yeah. And so I think that's such a representation of what you're talking about, where it's just like, no, I'm proud of him, that he could go and help this person. And this is this is a great thing. And also, I don't like that it happened to me, you know. Right, right.

[00:10:19] So interesting that we often go to shame, right? Like instead of being like, I'm actually awesome. Like this, we are helping society as a whole by the sacrifices that we're making at dinnertime. It's like, let me just feel bad that we felt bad.

[00:10:34] Or we're upset. Exactly. Yeah. There's like something wrong with me. I'm a bad person. I should just let him leave in the middle of everything, you know, like, obviously I should ask my permission. Should be thrilled that he's running out. Go save lives. Yes, exactly. Exactly, exactly. So what are some of the common issues that you see come up from time to time? And I do want to say, I mean, it seems to me like this would be I mean, it really could apply to anybody who has a partner or spouse who's got a really demanding job or things like that. But in the, you know, specifically more for people who are married to doctors or partnered up with doctors, what are the common things that seem to come up again and again?

[00:11:13] Yeah, I think like division of labor in the home is a big thing and there's a lot of their job is preventing me from X, y, z, whether like whatever, you know, goal or dream that they have. So there's some resentment there. It seems so insignificant. But I think it's a big deal when they are with people who aren't in medicine. They hear a lot like, oh, must be nice to be married to a doctor. And that can just like it's just like twisting the.

[00:11:43] Right, having them in the back and twisting it. You know, a.

[00:11:46] Lot of people don't understand what that actually entails and the work that went into it and the money that is like, you know, heavy the student loans and things like that. And then just the actually, there are a lot of things that aren't very nice at all, and there's not a line out the door like people wanting to hear about how hard it is.

[00:12:08] You're married, right?

[00:12:10] Because there are some things actually, right that are really, really nice. Like, I don't take my kids to the doctor very often because my husband can look at them and be like, they're actually fine and other things. But there are some challenges that most people just don't want to hear about.

[00:12:25] Exactly, exactly. So when people come to you with these things, like with the division of labor and stuff, you know, I think right now it's like a lot of people are really looking for equity. You know, it doesn't have to be equal necessarily, but equity. How do you approach that with them? I mean, I'll tell you what I find is that a lot of people just haven't even had the conversation with their partner about it. So, yeah. Tell me how you approach it.

[00:12:49] Well, first off, I think it's important like to look at the problem as like it's us against the problem versus me against him or, you know, the partner.

[00:13:00] Yeah.

[00:13:00] And it's so easy to just be like, if they would only fill in the blank, then this wouldn't exist versus like, okay, like, let's take, you know, an example of a child getting sick. Right. And and so okay, we have a problem. The school called and the child needs to come home early because they're sick. So now we just need to figure out, you know, who's going to go get the child and then who's going to take care of the child if they're younger, when we both have to work, and then your brain can go to work solving for that versus like, I'm so sick of being the one who always has to drop everything so that they can do their job.

And when you approach it, like I call it, us against the problem, then you're on the same team, and then it doesn't mean you agree on the solution, it doesn't mean there isn't tension. But then you can go to work solving the problem versus who's to blame here.

[00:13:53] Yeah, I would imagine that really helps with even initiating the conversation too. Right. Like if I go to my husband, I'm like, look, when you do all this stuff, when you're so busy and you can't this and that, it's, you know, it feels very directed at the right. It's easy to to get your hackles up and start feeling defensive and conversation maybe isn't so fluid, but when it's like, hey, I'd love to discuss with you how we can figure out a better way that works for both of us. When the kids get sick, then it's a little more like, oh yeah, I'll have a discussion about that. Like, let's talk about it. Yes, let's I.

[00:14:29] Love that you brought that up because it's something so tactical. Right. And it's.

[00:14:32] Usually.

[00:14:33] Not the best time. Like right in the moment. It's like a lot of other types of conversations, right? That you just say, hey, I'd love to have a discussion about this. Is now a good. Time or later. So you give them some options, right? And then I love that you brought up defensiveness too, because when we come with our armor up, it's so easy for them to put theirs up. Right. But when we come like open and wanting to solve the problem, then even if they put their armor up like we can stay grounded, that is a skill that I think I would love to give every marriage because one person stays open. You can have an effective conversation.

[00:15:12] And and because humans are often mirror each other, if one person is listening and is kind of keeping the temperature down, let's just say right, like it can help to, you know, make it more productive for sure. For sure. Now, one thing that I hear a lot of in the work that I do, and also outside of it, is like the ownership of actual important things to the family, so to speak. So people will sometimes say, I just wish my partner helped more. You know, if you objectively look at it like the partner does, maybe carpool kids or take kids around and do all these different things, yet the initial person doesn't really feel better and still doesn't feel like they're actually getting the help that they want. They're asking for help.

They are getting like assistance, but they still don't feel better. That could be just like habitual lines of thinking, you know, always kind of like the filter through which you see that what the person does is like never enough. Like you've decided that they don't do enough. So therefore they could never do enough for it to be enough. But I also think that there's something to be said for recognizing that there are different parts to accomplishing something. You know, getting the kids to swim practice is important, but who is signing them up? Who is looking at the emails to figure out where things are, who's signing them up for the meets, and making sure that makes sense with all the other family activities, who's making sure that they have the proper swimsuits and that when their goggles break, they have, you know, a middle pair, all the other kind of higher level things that go into making it possible for the kids to be driven to swim practice.

[00:16:56] And I think that it's important for us to even just recognize that, because when we're asking for help, I think we need to know what are we asking for? It's like, who actually owns this? And they're mine needs to be on it and thinking about it. So that's something that even my own husband and I just in the last couple of years, finally felt like we made some progress on where I was just like, I want to know nothing about this activity except what you need me to do to help. So it was like flipping the whole script, and now I'm the one who comes and just assists.

And it's really fascinating. The kids come to me, where's swim practice tonight? I'm like, I have no idea. Like what's on the calendar? I don't know what to tell you. I don't get the emails, I don't know anything about it. And to a certain extent, it's been really, really good for us to, you know, I think he gets a better sense of like what it's really like to own one of these activities and be in charge of all of it. And it does then feel more equitable to me where it's like, like, just tell me what to do. Well, I can't tell you to go into my email and pull this off and like, you know, so.

[00:18:02] I have a question for you about that, because I find with a lot of my clients that giving up that control is very challenging for them. So like they don't want the responsibility but they don't actually want. Their partner to have a responsibility, because then their partner might do it wrong differently than they do it. So there's like, has there been any of that or have you seen that with your clients?

[00:18:24] Well, I just decided that there's a learning curve to everything, and I was willing to let him bump his head a little bit. Everybody write that down. All right. Because I really, really, really, really needed to not be in charge of that. The way this happened was kind of I didn't go into it like, like totally planning to do this. It kind of happened. Sort of. Thanks, universe. It's one of those things where they couldn't get my email address to work. Makes no sense, because my oldest son used to be on this team and I used to all get all the emails, but for whatever reason, like we tried a million things, we could not get it so that I was getting any of the emails and then I was having to, like, text this other mom and find out all these things, and it just wasn't working.

Finally they said, you know, do you have another email we can try? And I was like, well, I'm not giving them my work email because no, like separation of church and state. Like there's no way it's totally up in there. So I was like, Matt, can I have them use your email? And he's like, yeah, okay. Because he knew, like, we need to be getting the information about this team. And then I was like, so how about since you're getting everything and I can't I literally cannot get it. How about you take over?

[00:19:34] That's so good, I love it.

[00:19:36] So that's how that happened. So. But I will say, you know, just as a pediatrician, this is after, you know, ten years of observation of different couples, particularly male, female. So like more of a, you know, hetero couple, very, very, very common for the mom to be very controlling of, particularly when they're babies and really little of like how every you know, exactly how the diapers should go on and exactly everything about the child and then the father trying to help. And constantly being told that he was doing it wrong. And so when you are constantly getting feedback that you're not doing it right, I mean, this is just human behavior, conditioned response. You stop trying. Right.

Because if you can't ever do anything right, why would you keep trying? And then the moms are complaining that they're not doing anything. I would see that. And I think something in me just knew even from early on, like, I can't do this all by myself. I'm unwilling to change every diaper. I don't care that much that the diapers one in the way that I like to do it. You know, actually, what I found is that he was better at some things than me. Like I taught him how to swaddle a baby and he could swaddle a baby better than me. And I was like, are you kidding me right now?

So I think I was just like, I can't do this where I feel like I have to do everything and have a career and all that. It's just not going to work. So I think this is somewhat an extension of that. But also I was like, yeah, like we'll probably miss some things and probably I mean, even still sometimes the kids, it's, you know, we get the schedule a month at a time and sometimes we're into the early month and I don't know where things are. And I give swimming zero brain space.

[00:21:14] Oh, that's so good. Like that's so good.

[00:21:17] And they're like, oh, it's always on Tuesdays. It's whatever school I'm like, I can't remember that because I have decided not to remember it.

[00:21:23] You brought up a couple of things. I think that it's important to ask ourselves those questions like that you saw through your patients, right? Am I thinking that I have to be the one to do these? Or where am I trying to control the situation? Right? Like with so much love for yourself, might need to let go of some of that. I can't have all the control and all of the hell. And then second that you brought up earlier was like, how did I get myself here into this?

Like you talked about how you and your husband did that with, like, not just thinking about who's going to take the kids, but like, what else is going to be impacted. Like, do we want to add this thing into our family like, that can like, help you prevent a lot of the problems that might come? Right? And if you're already in the thick of it, that's fine. You can still ask yourself, how did I get here? How did we get here? And then you're solving the problem. Instead of blaming the person or yourself.

[00:22:17] Or like, you know, the partner is the one who wanted to get this kid into hockey, but then is never there to help with any of this stuff or whatever. Well, but if it's really true that you, as a, as the parents decided we will do hockey, I mean, you could have said no, because you're never going to be able to help with any a better do any of it.

[00:22:33] Or you don't want to or you don't want to. Not wanting to is is reason enough as well as reason enough.

[00:22:39] Yeah, exactly. And so it seems to me like a lot of the resentment comes from not using your voice and not actually speaking about what's true for you. And just like going along with things, going along with what is either truly expected or what you assume to be expected of you, and then feeling like you have no choice in the matter. But using your words right? Having conversations, having discussions about things is the only way to work through that. I feel like.

[00:23:10] Totally. And I think for a long time, as I would coach on resentment, I'd be like, it's this emotion that we it's totally unnecessary. Let's just like, work through it. And I think as I've like coached more and more, I think resentment and this will hopefully be helpful to all your listeners. Resentment could just be a window into what you want that you're not getting. And so because resentment is kind of I think for a lot of people, one of those emotions like jealousy, like, I don't want to admit I'm feeling that like I, you know, but if you can just get curious about it, okay, what am I wanting that I'm not getting, wanting or needing?

And then you can work from there and solving the problem instead of either blaming your partner that they are creating this for you or blaming yourself like, well, I've got myself into this situation, I should just be happy about it, right? You can kind of ask yourself, figure out what it is that you want, and then you can approach your partner from there. I really would like this. How can we get this together?

[00:24:08] Mhm. I think that's where coaching can be so helpful. Right. Because sometimes we're like I'm not sure I feel resentment but I don't even really know what I want yet. Okay. So then coaching can help you get really clear on that so that you come to the conversation as clear as you can be for yourself, you know, prepared for that conversation, able to like, support yourself. I don't I don't even want to say like stand up for yourself because that feels like adversarial. It's more just like being confident in what you're bringing to the conversation so that you can advocate for yourself.

[00:24:39] Yes. And then be open to hearing your partner's side, too. Right. When you're confident you're not on guard as much, you're like, okay, I'm willing to listen. I'm willing to actually be wrong about this or to hear your side. But yeah, it's the whole having the armor up that just usually, in my experience, doesn't end well. And the connected conversation or even just a conversation that solves the problem.

[00:25:03] So this is super good. Okay. I want to talk about one more thing I want. Talk about keeping score, because that is something that a lot of us, you know, I coach a lot of people on like fairness, you know what I mean? Like what's fair and what's unfair and what, you know, what people believe is right and wrong. And there are definitely people who are kind of like keeping the tally, you know? Well, I did it this many times and they have only done it once or like things like that. How do you work people through that?

[00:25:33] Oh, that's such a good question. It's so it's a natural thing to do, right, to keep score. And so I think the first place to start is that I start with my clients is like, okay, let's let's just get curious about why you're on the OP. Because if we're keeping score, then we're not on the same team as our husband, right. Or our partner. And so that's actually good.

[00:25:51] If you just think of sports, right, a score is only needed if there's two teams.

[00:25:55] Exactly. You're only keeping it if one is winning and one is losing. That old adage like, would you rather be right? Or would you rather be connected right? And sometimes I just want to be right, even admitting.

[00:26:10] That to myself.

[00:26:11] Right. Like it's like, okay. Yes. Okay. Now. Once you recognize that you're keeping score means that you're not on the same team, then you can like ask yourself, why am I putting myself on the opposite team as this person that I've like, decided to dedicate my life to, like living together for, you know, my my lifelong partner. And then it's easier, I think, from there to be like, okay, let me just look at this more objectively and getting really micro, right? Like, okay, this is what we're dealing with right now, this one situation, and I can make it really big and say, this is every time I'm sure that you talk to your clients about this.

Like whenever our brain uses words like always, never, every time, it's like a notification for my brain to be like, I'm probably not telling myself the truth. And then from there, you can. I think it's easier when you decide that you want to be on the same team, to be able to see the other person's perspective. And I think a lot of people hear that and they're like, he doesn't see mine, she doesn't see mine. But like, what if you could? It doesn't mean you have to give up your perspective at all, but you're just willing to go first in, like seeing what it might be like for them.

[00:27:26] It's like an act of generosity. I feel like to just try to put yourself in their shoes. Of what? That's all like, you know what I mean? Like, I think sometimes too, it's like maybe during training, like with residency and stuff or fellowship, if the couple is together, then it's like, well, they were so busy, like every waking hour that really everything else did fall to the other partner. And then that has just become like the way that like by default, you know, like the way that everything was kind of split up and how you function. And then it never really has been like reevaluated or it never is really matured as the relationship has matured.

And so now you might have that partner who is taking lots of time to go golfing for many hours, you know, and like, you know, all these other maybe social types of things or, and then the other partner is like, how is that happening? And I'm still over here doing all of these other things. It can be easy. It's like, well, he went golfing three times this month and I haven't seen my friends in three months, you know, or something like that. Like that. Keeping score. I think you're. Yeah. Everything you said is a window into conversation.

[00:28:33] And it requires the partner to change up the dance steps. Right. Which is awkward and uncomfortable.

[00:28:39] And basically saying, hey, you're going to have to do less of what you want to do potentially. Right?

[00:28:43] And allowing your partner to not necessarily love that is, I think sometimes we choose the saying silently resentful over like the discomfort that we might feel by what we are thinking about, what their opinion of what we're asking.

[00:29:00] At what point. I'm curious, do you suggest bringing in I my understanding is you don't work with couples. Is that correct?

[00:29:07] No, not no, not usually if I do it like separately.

[00:29:10] Okay. At what point? Because I do feel like sometimes it really benefits couples to have really like a facilitator essentially to help everybody to feel heard and understood, making sure that, you know, it's clear what everyone is saying. And often it's going to be a therapist who would be really skilled at being able to do that. What's the line for you when you start going? You know, it might be something for you to think about to like bring in a couples therapists to help facilitate the movement forward on this.

[00:29:40] That's such a good question. I wish I had like a straightforward, oh, this is the line, you know, but I think for the most part, it's when they've been working with me for some times and it just feels like they're spinning their wheels, like they're bumping up against the same problems over and over this or the same emotions in all these different areas that that can be like, okay, maybe we need someone, like you said, an extra person.

[00:30:04] I think also some people it's just like avoidance is real, right? You just like really don't want to have the conversation or you try to initiate it and it just like is never a good time or like it feels like you want to have had the conversation, but the actual doing of it, like, you know, really just don't want to do or I have found like sometimes it's like the same fight again and again, like the conversation is trying to be had, but then it just keeps spiraling out. They're fighting. No one's getting anywhere, no progress is made. It's like, that's what I think. Like probably a therapist would have been able to keep the temperature lower. And yeah, exactly.

Like help them each to see each other in a better way if they're open to doing that. So I think sometimes obviously to go to couples therapy, you need both parties willing to go. And I think some people can be really reluctant to do that, but I've really seen it be very beneficial for some people because it's also like learning the skill of how to have those conversations with one another. And you could be married, you know, 35, 40 years and still not have that skill if you've never worked through it. So I don't think it's ever too late to build that in, improve the strength of that marriage and the ability. To have those conversations so that everybody is getting what they need out of the relationship.

[00:31:20] Definitely. And I think one thing to to pay attention to is like, are you already deciding in your head that your partner is not gonna be willing to do something like that? I see that a lot. Like, well, but have you asked them, you know, like we often make all these assumptions, myself included, about what my how my partner is going to react to something. And so like, well, that's not even worth bringing up. Like, actually they might surprise you. And even if they don't, your relationship is worth bringing up.

[00:31:51] Mm, I love that. Okay. So if anybody listening wants to find out more, you have a great podcast. What is the title of it? It's rock.

[00:31:59] Solid relationships.

[00:32:01] Sara Payne.

[00:32:01] Payne e e a n e. Yeah.

[00:32:04] Is there an H. There's no H on the Sara right. No h no h. Okay.

[00:32:08] If you type in rock solid relationships, it.

[00:32:10] You're gonna find it. Okay. And then what's your website.

[00:32:13] My website is So okay perfect okay.

[00:32:17] No h. And by the you know I think there's going to be people listening who are going to be like you know I think I'm good. But my friend is really struggling. And to just know that the work that you do is out there so that people can, through word of mouth, just share that there are actually people out there who are not only just helping with marriages, but particularly with medical marriages, which it's just a little bit of a different ball of wax than your typical.

[00:32:44] Totally. And I think relationships are the most important part of our lives, right? Until. So sometimes it's really easy to be like, well, he would never change. He would never change. Like, it's not worth it, but like, it's just worth questioning. Like, what if it weren't as hard as living like I'm currently living?

[00:33:01] Mhm. Right. If it could be easier would I be interested in that.

[00:33:04] Yes. And then from there like what if it could be actually like amazing. Not just like.

[00:33:10] Right.

[00:33:10] Like that's a.

[00:33:11] Stretch.

[00:33:13] We could do little stuff like if it couldn't be easier.

[00:33:16] Right, right, right. Yeah. Let's just start with that. All right. Sara, thank you so much for joining me. This is really, really great. And I love the work that you're doing.

[00:33:23] Oh thank you. It's been so fun.

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