Ep #363: Self-Investment and Leadership with Erin Aquin & Steve Haase, Part 2

Welcome to the Weight Loss for Busy Physicians podcast. I'm your host, master certified life and weight loss coach, Katrina Ubell, M.D. This is the podcast where busy doctors like you come to learn how to lose weight for the last time by harnessing the power of your mind. If you're looking to overcome your stress, eating and exhaustion and move into freedom around food, you're in the right place. Well. Hello there, my friend. Welcome to today's episode.

This is part two of my conversation with Erin Aquin and Steve Haase from the organization called Super Abound. If you haven't listened to part one of this, you might want to start there. Also, you can listen to this one as a standalone. That would be okay, but it's really kind of meant to be a little combo [00:01:00] deal. I am really excited to be able to talk with them today about leadership, because this is something that is thrown around a lot. It's really expected of us a lot, and a lot of people don't teach us how to do it. It's kind of like it's as though you're supposed to just like a born leader, like you just innately know how to do a good job, or that you've even had good leaders. And so they've modeled to you how to do it.

A lot of us have not had those experiences. It doesn't come as naturally to us. And then we can really, really struggle. And I see day in and day out for doctors that that struggle really creates overall a lack of job satisfaction, career satisfaction and in some cases leads to burnout and or people feeling like they just need to leave their organization to find a place with, you know, different policies, different people just starting over again and not recognizing how much control or really influence that they have over their specific [00:02:00] experience.

[00:02:01] What I really in particular love about Erin and Steve, just as individuals, is that they come from a place of total pragmatism, but they're they just don't bring any of like the typical kind of like, this is how you need to succeed in your career energy. You know, I hesitate to call it like bro energy, but they just are such calming presences. They really are very, very thoughtful. And everything they talk about is doable. It feels like, oh, I could do that. Yeah, that's something I could work on. And they come with a lot of experience themselves, not because they were just, you know, born this way as amazing leaders, but from their own personal experiences and from coaching tons and tons and tons of leaders and business owners.

And they have worked with a lot of doctors, too, which I think is really great. So whether you are somebody who has, you know, something that is explicitly a leadership position or not, you're going to get a lot out of this. [00:03:00] I know I did, and I just imagine how much this would have helped me back in the days when I was practicing, particularly early on in my career. So I'm excited for you to learn more about their thoughts on leadership. They also will tell you more on how you can get some free help from them, and also if you're interested in really actually learning more deeply from them, how you can do that as well at the end of the episode.

So I'm really excited to bring you part two of my interview with Steve Haase and Erin Aquin. Please enjoy. All right, Stephen, welcome back to the podcast. So glad that you are here with me again. Thank you for being here.

[00:03:41] Thank you.

[00:03:42] So this is a topic we're going to talk about leadership today. We really have not talked about this very much on this podcast. Considering how many years I've been doing this. It's kind of actually surprising to me. Like, huh, I've really talked about this too much. It's something that I coach on a lot in my program, and I know my team [00:04:00] does as well. It's just something that I love, that you guys help doctors with a lot, you know? But not just in that. Like, this is how you do your job. Better level of leadership.

It's like self leadership. And it's just a it's a more holistic, I would say, approach to leadership. And I also know that you both really have experience in, you know, kind of bumbling through this process yourselves, which I think is really good. Steve, if you don't mind sharing, I believe you one time told me, you know, you were being promoted up through a company and expected to manage a bunch of people and had just no experience doing that. Is that correct?

[00:04:35] It was a rough time in my life. We write about it in our upcoming book and it is what happens to most people, I discovered is you do really well at your job and people are like, you should manage the team. You're like, all right, let me at it. And then you find you're in a totally different job that you never went to school for and have no background in.

[00:04:54] Totally. Right. I listened to a podcast one time where they were talking about how in corporate North America, [00:05:00] most people end up, you know, if they succeed at their job, they get promoted. If they succeed at that job, they get promoted, and they continually get promoted until they stop doing a good job. And then they stay there for the rest of their careers. So they're like, not doing that great. You know what I mean? Like, probably don't have the skill level, maybe don't like it that much. And then that becomes their career and how that is really messed up.

That's just really not a recipe for people to be, you know, satisfied and doing their best work. So I was sharing with you earlier that I think that a lot of people just expect doctors to be good leaders, partly because we go through the whole hierarchical ranking system to become doctors. And there's just an expectation that when you are an intern, you're going to lead your medical students, and when you're a senior resident, you're going to be leading the, you know, the interns and leading those medical students and that, you know, you're just going to do a good job at this. And I shared with you that they even give awards and stuff for who does the best job, but they don't actually give you any training on how to [00:06:00] do well. So it's like if you just happen to be good at it, like good on you, and everybody else is just kind of bumbling around, not really sure what to do.

[00:06:08] And, you know, in doctor's defense, there's a lot of other things to be focusing on. You know, it's like a whole separate job to a certain extent, or kind of like, yeah, it really is a whole different skill set. And people aren't teaching you how to do that. And I was thinking again, like, there are probably people listening like, oh, I don't have a leadership position or, you know, I'm not leader, but like you are, even if you have like the most entry level position, because you work on a team, you often are writing orders that other people need to follow, like you are leading your support staff. When you go into a patient interaction, you are in a leadership role. There is a power dynamic there where typically you have more power, even if it's just a little bit.

And so I was thinking about how I used to struggle to get out of the room [00:07:00] when on time, like I'd have, you know, a patient appointment, and then I'd be getting more and more behind because I was getting stuck and feeling like I couldn't leave. I mean, that's a leadership issue. That's me not leading that interaction well. And so I think these are all it's like doctors sometimes are even partly compensated on how on time they are and how, you know, like satisfaction of people's experiences.

[00:07:26] Yet they do not have the skills and no one has taught them this. And arguably, if it's so important for us to. No, this kind of stuff to do well and create a good experience for the people we care for. Like, would it make sense to actually take the time to teach doctors how to do this and think? In some cases they are. But typically you need to be in a much more advanced, higher up leadership level. To be given those opportunities. So I just want to preface it with that because leadership applies to everybody, you know.

And we're just talking about work here. [00:08:00] I mean, you might have other opportunities to be a leader in your personal life as well. So I think that having this conversation is going to be super great. Last time in part one, we talked about the personal filter. We talked about setting boundaries, teaching people how to work with us, and no matter what, we are teaching people how to work with us. It's just, do we like the result of that teaching or not? Anyway, I would love to just know your take on it. What do we do when we're bumbling around? And me too mean? People think like, oh, you're running this company? Oh, I've had some extremely painful leadership lessons learned over the last seven, eight years.

[00:08:40] Yeah. Mean, to your point, my clients, the full extent of their leadership training was watching. Terrible leaders in their organization totally screw it up. And then trying to figure out how to do the opposite of that.

[00:08:55] Oh, I would completely concur with that. Yes, it's like we many of us are like, [00:09:00] I know what bad leadership looks like for sure. Yeah, definitely. Yeah.

[00:09:04] And sometimes, unfortunately, what tends to happen, I think this is probably more true of of women than men is that in that trying to reverse what you see other people doing, sometimes there's an overcompensation about being extra nice and extra helpful and like doing things that maybe aren't your job sometimes in order to get people on your side. Which is why the topic of having a personal filter. It's why that can be so uncomfortable when you finally decide, okay, I never leave the patient room on time and I'm really going to change that.

But that means not talking for an extra ten minutes and not maybe socializing before I get there. And like, there's there's a lot of other factors that go into whatever your objective might be, and it can be really, really tricky. I shared last time that my backgrounds of coaching was actually coaching people in romantic relationships. [00:10:00] So much of those same tools are really good and leadership skills. Not all of them, of course, but Overcommunication is, I think, one of the most underrated and most effective tools. Whether you are leading an entire organization or leading a team of a few people in front of you who are taking your orders for that day. There is something to learning how to be appropriately transparent with people and actually asking for what you need.

[00:10:34] Communication is the foundation of leadership because it's how we as humans can work together, so we get on the same page. It's how we line up our efforts so that we're doing more together than we could on our own, which is sort of the definition of leadership is to bring people together towards a common aim. If you're not communicating well, you just can't do that. The [00:11:00] thing that will actually help you. Bring more energy to that and feel more confident in that, because that's what a lot of people struggle with, especially if you get promoted from being peers with everyone and now you're leading your former peers.

Confidence can be a big issue. Imposter syndrome. Like, who am I to be suddenly given orders, right? The thing that will give you that confidence, or at least be an anchor point for you to communicate effectively is vision. Knowing where you want to go, where everyone has said they want to go, right? What is the vision of the organization? Why are you all there? That is your common ground. Because another thing that. A great leader will do that. Those who are, you know, a little less experienced because experience is really the main differentiator between someone who leads well and someone who, you know, makes more mistakes, is the person who does it well, has had more repetitions. [00:12:00] They've had they've made.

[00:12:01] A lot more mistakes already.

[00:12:03] They've made the mistakes, for God's sakes. The ability to communicate effectively comes from knowing where everyone is going, and actually being able to speak to that so that you can have the hard conversations about, we're not aligned here. This is not going well. This is the level that we needed to be at. The inexperienced leader will avoid those conversations and hope they fix themselves, because it's so uncomfortable to offer feedback or to be constructive in how you can help somebody grow.

But if you know that you need to go somewhere and you know why that matters, you can feel empowered to step into those conversations and have that leadership role without you needing to feel like you're anybody special because that oftentimes don't. Who am I, right? You're not going to feel like Superman or Wonder Woman just because you got a new role. So that commitment to the vision is what can help you step into that space effectively.

[00:12:57] That really resonates what you're [00:13:00] describing. I'm like, oh yeah. Yep, yep. Been there for sure. You know, what you think is interesting would just kind of came to me as like in part of my work in being able to speak up more and to develop my leadership skills and to really be able to express, like, you know what I need, what I want. Holding people accountable, things like that is making it a little less about me. Like thinking about my own children. Like, you know, I would have zero problem advocating for them. In fact, I do when necessary all the time, and I'm not so concerned. Well, what are people going to think about me?

And, you know, that doesn't factor in. So when I'm advocating for someone else it tends to come easier. So interesting. Late, right. Like I kind of think like, okay, if it's easier and I can do it there, how can I extrapolate those skills to an area where I struggle with it more? And if you're connected to that vision of what you want the experience to be like, and it doesn't even have to be like, what is the experience is like for the patients? Only, [00:14:00] you know, like we value their experience over, we value ours. It could be like everyone needs to be winning, you know, like patients are happy.

[00:14:07] We're enjoying ourselves. We're feeling good interacting with one another. Like it can be all of those things. But when you're advocating for the vision, it's not like you're advocating so much for you. It's easy, I think, for women in particular to feel like now they're being selfish, like like you said, who do you think you are? Like, you think you're so special, you know, it's like, no, this is the vision. This is a good thing for everybody. And I'm going to advocate for that experience for everybody because no one else is going to. And I think it can.

It's a slight shift, but I think it can be a little bit like training wheels to get you creating that experience for everybody. And like you said, holding people accountable to it for sure, for sure. So we talked last time about the tending triad and how that is based in firefighting and fires. And often [00:15:00] people use that kind of language to talk about all the problems. You know, like I put out fires all day. You know, I feel like I'm just like a firefighter at work, you know, just like constantly trying to solve the problems and not able to focus on creating more of what you want. So how would one work to shift away from that?

[00:15:20] What should we will fix it in five minutes?

[00:15:23] Oh love it.

[00:15:25] I mean, the really interesting thing is, you know, we've we've trained people at various organizations. A lot of times what we find is people don't actually know what their job description is. So one of the things about not being a firefighter is knowing, like what actually is in your lane and what is not. If you are crossing your lane to go put out fires for other people and it's not part of your job, that's actually a leadership issue.

[00:15:57] Well, we talk about leading through coaching [00:16:00] rather than firefighting, because when you think of yourself as a coach, you are there to help your team become better. And if you just. Cover for them and you solve their problems. They cannot become better. And it makes sense why you would do that. Because it's faster and you can do it easier, and then you don't have to confront them. And all the reasons that we would just run around putting out fires, but that extra time that you would put into reviewing the job description, sitting down and having a feedback, even if it's just for a couple of minutes, that investment seems like a lot. But by doing it, you take yourself out of the role of fixer, problem solver and firefighter.

[00:16:47] Yeah, you become more of the collaborative coach that can be offering support on how to solve a problem. You actually get to teach people how to solve problems and maybe think the way you think. If you are the expert, [00:17:00] that that's why people go to you. They want you to solve the problem because you're so good at it, teaching people how to do that for themselves. And actually. One of the phrases I love for leaders is here's why I'm telling you this. I'm telling you this because this is actually an expectation of your job, and I know you can be great at it. And I know that that's going to make this a more fun and seamless experience for all of us. I know the patient's going to really appreciate it. Like it's really funny.

Sometimes we just assume that other people should know. Anytime you find yourself firefighting, there's probably some kind of story in there that's saying, how do they not know this? How do they know not know that this is not my job? How do they not know that they were supposed to do this? They don't know because they actually probably don't know, or because they know you're going to come in and save the day. So getting really articulate about the. Expectations that you have for [00:18:00] other people getting really clear about your vision.

If you have an organization, has a vision, a lot of times people don't know what that is. They couldn't run that off in their sleep. Start every meeting. Start every team. Huddle with that. Vision and you can start to do what we did last time, like create that visionary practice of connecting to that bigger purpose and then determine what the activities are for the day. Yeah.

[00:18:25] And recognizing that, like your vision, if you don't spend enough time with the people you lead. Talking about that vision and, you know, sort of like selling them on it, but really getting their buy in, like your vision could be scary to them. They might not know what's going to happen, you know, so they're not behind it because it hasn't really been properly explained to them, or they were just told what it is and didn't have an opportunity to ask questions or things like that. I think another thing, like just another reason that, you know, having a coach for yourself is so valuable when you're in a role like this is because it's very easy when we work with those people [00:19:00] day in and day out to be like, no, but they definitely do know. I mean, they've been told so many times, you know, like we're already just thinking negatively about them, judging them or like so frustrated or angry with them.

It's very hard, I think, to lead properly coming from that place. There's actually there's this, this parenting psychologist who I just I haven't even finished listening to it yet, but listening to a podcast interview with her, her name is Dr. Becky Kennedy. And her whole thing is like for children that she thinks that everybody is good inside, but we just do bad things. And so like kind of the premise is like, no matter what, like your child is good inside. And then they were kind of saying like, you know, you can use this with adults too. Like, if everybody is good inside, you know, if you believe, like everybody wants to do a good job, everybody wants to feel like they're winning. If that's the basis from which we can move from that, we have to drop all the additional baggage and layers that we put on top of them so that we can figure out how to communicate with them [00:20:00] well, so we can essentially get them on our side so that it's a team that's all rowing in the same direction, instead of feeling like everybody is in opposition to one another.

[00:20:11] Yeah. Go back to the self-reflection piece that you brought up there. When you're putting out fires and solving problems for other people, sometimes it is because of not wanting to take the time to look at the system or offer the feedback. Sometimes it's a result of not wanting to have the difficult conversation, of giving the feedback or holding a high standard, but sometimes it's because you don't want to give up the feeling of usefulness. Because if you're able to solve everyone's problems, you are in fricking dispensable, man. No one's getting rid of you, right? Your value is felt all over the organization. So if you find yourself feeling frustrated or resentful that people aren't really carrying their weight as yourself, in what ways are you encouraging that [00:21:00] in order to get something from that situation, it might.

[00:21:02] Even be like a subconscious kind of a thing, like there's a part of you that wants to do it all to get that validation, be able to think that way about yourself. And another part is totally resentful that you're doing all of it. You know what I mean? It can be very conflicting, right? Where we're like, I know I need to give it up, but like, take it out of my cold, dead hands, you know? And it's like.

[00:21:20] Leadership is deep. You got to really go into what your motivations are, where you're coming from, how much you can trust other people, how you're actually expressing that trust, all those things. It all comes up when you're leading and people think, well, you know, you've got the title, go do the job. You're like, no, you got to really go deep into what you're up to and why.

[00:21:40] I think with leadership, it's important to recognize that there's no there, you know, like there's that arrival fallacy, right? Like that. You're going to get to some place where you're going to be a good enough leader and like, you'll have seen it all and you'll know what to do, and it'll always be the right thing and it will always work. Like I feel like I'm recognizing more and more like, yes, there are some basic things to [00:22:00] learn and improve your skill level at, and that will make a big difference. But it's a practice like anything else, like when you can go into it with some humility of like, I'm always learning and growing and developing skills more and more and understanding human behavior more and understanding, you know, working on my communication skills and all those kinds of things.

It probably is going to be more of a satisfying or fulfilling experience being a leader, like genuinely being interested in people and how to help them succeed, which really is different. Like those are your people in the organization. We already as doctors, if we're practicing right, like are interested in our patients and helping them to thrive and succeed. So I think sometimes it can feel like a lot, but recognizing that when you're leading well, everybody wins, like patients are in and out more efficiently. And when you're being surveyed on their whole entire experience, which includes your support staff and the support staff are unhappy or inappropriate or [00:23:00] whatever it is, and that, and you're getting dinged because of the way they are.

[00:23:04] Like, it makes sense for you to invest in those people, even if you're not actually the one hiring them, even if they're employed by a totally different organization, even if you're technically not even really their boss, like they're still on your team, you're still working together in some way toward a shared goal. And approaching it in that way can only help all the things. Like, you know, a turnover right now is a huge issue. You know, like people just feeling like overworked and lots of jobs open and unfilled. And it is challenging. But when you have a good leader, like you're willing to do that challenging work with them. And except just a lot of us have not had that experience, so we don't know how to mimic it.

And I think to your point, what you guys are saying earlier is like a lot of the leadership training that we get is, you know, have I ever had a good leader or not? So if you've been lucky enough to be led by someone who was really good at it or put, you know, maybe naturally had [00:24:00] some skill and talent, but probably also put a lot of effort into it and, you know, might be a little easier. You might have a leg up. But I think a lot of people, like maybe the majority of people haven't had that experience. So we're all bumbling around and trying to figure it out.

[00:24:13] That's a big, big thing to also keep in mind that there's no board exams for leadership. It's the one place where it's also going to feel probably pretty vulnerable because you're used to as a doctor being the one with the answers. Or at least people think you have all the answers and they're hanging on every word and expecting you to always know the exact right thing to do. And then when we're talking about coaching as a leadership style. What's hard about that is sometimes you have to uncouple from being the expert, and you have to say, I think I've articulated what we need here, and I think everybody knows the vision. And yet this problem keeps happening over and over again. All right, team, what is happening? What do we need to do. [00:25:00] And it can feel really exposing from what I've heard.

[00:25:05] One thing that could help is a tool that we created to make it as simple as possible, but to really give you a lens to understand your experience and to understand what's going on around you so that you can make progress right. When you're a leader, everyone's looking to you. They're like, well, what should we do? Because we have no idea. You're like, you think I do? Right. So that's that's the the vulnerability and the responsibility. And so to help you get through the, the vagueness, the kind of unknown murkiness that often comes with these problems, these big challenges that are on your plate, we created what we call the progress formula.

[00:25:47] So it's formula. It's a formula.

[00:25:49] It's math and science. You're speaking my language right. Everyone's going to love it.

[00:25:55] So so the formula it's an if-then statement. And so it says if your [00:26:00] vision is greater than the product of your challenges, which are the things you need to do, the terrain between you and where you want to go times your static, which is the inner voices of self-criticism, self-doubt, blame all the kind of thoughts and feelings that the drama, the drama, the drama, times the drama.

[00:26:22] Right?

[00:26:23] So if that evaluates to true, then you make progress so you can have an impact either through strengthening the vision, getting more people on board with where we're going, why it matters you can have an impact by simplifying and shrinking those challenges rather than trying to fix the hospital. Well, why don't we just get this one shift in order, right? You kind of shrink challenge, make it more specific, and then you understand what is the drama. How can you take responsibility for your part in it? How can you Move folks out Of static? So like when you're a leader, that's a big thing is sometimes you have collective static. You have a crew [00:27:00] of people who are gossiping or, you know, sitting around instead of doing the things that are on their employee expectation.

[00:27:08] List as the culture, looking at how the culture is making those challenges even harder. Those are all ways that you can get the formula to evaluate to true, and then you make progress, right? So it's clearing the static. It's shrinking the challenges. It's growing the vision. Those are your three levers to go from feeling stuck to knowing how to make progress and actually seeing it happen.

[00:27:32] That's so good. That is so, so good. I think I will just just full transparency. I think there is a part of me that was like, yeah, but if everyone just does their job, then we don't even have to do any of this. You know? Like it was still me wanting to avoid having those difficult conversations, having to repeat myself again and again and again. I actually just was in a workshop last week and the leader said, you know how everybody always said, like, you have to tell people something like, you know, eight times before they [00:28:00] actually like can remember it and stuff.
She said. They did. They redid that study and now it's 34 is actually what it is. So really like, yes. Do you need to be a broken record? Yes. My belief that I should be able to say it once and everyone remembers is not a great belief. Like that will only create problems for me if I think that's how people should be. Because guess what? They're not. So like repeating yourself again and again, saying it again and again. Just making peace with that could be something that is really, really valuable. You know, just saying, like seeing that broken record and unapologetically might make a huge difference.

[00:28:37] I mean, that like I call it overcommunication, where you're going to keep talking and narrating your experience with someone, but something that's even that's also very powerful when you're using coaching as a leadership tool, is you start to like, make sure they understand it. Like one of the most amazing things anyone could do at the end of a meeting is say, tell me what you're doing today [00:29:00] based on what we talked about and you actually hear from them, they're understanding. If people can't articulate back to you what the vision is, if they can't articulate back to you the challenges that they are responsible for overcoming today. They missed it. And then you don't need to repeat it again. You can just fix it in that moment, but you don't have to waste the end of the day when you're now the one putting out the fire.

[00:29:25] Yeah. Or wondering like, do they not hear me? Yeah, they probably didn't. Or they just still don't remember it or whatever it is. Yeah, yeah. So part of what you do at Superbad is you teach leaders how to coach their people so that you can really help those people to do their best in their own roles, which ultimately makes your life easier as a leader. So rather than like telling people all the time or like punishments or whatever, you know, improvement plans, like things like that, it's really helping to develop people [00:30:00] using techniques that are in alignment with how human brains work. Would that be a good description?

[00:30:07] Yeah, exactly. Well, it's using the progress formula for your whole team, rather than just kind of being the magician who's able to wield it. You teach other people to discover their own vision. You work with them to break down their own challenges. You help them understand their own static and move into a clearer state. Then you have empowered people all around you, rather than you being the one who's responsible for carrying the load.

[00:30:32] That's awesome. So let's just wrap up here. So you have a podcast.

[00:30:37] It's called the Super Bound podcast.

[00:30:39] The Super Bound podcast. Okay. So that's free anywhere podcasts are. You can listen to that. I've listened to several episodes very, very helpful. Good stuff. And then secondly, if someone wanted to know more about your program in teaching leaders to be able to coach their people, how could they find that just going to your website? Or is there something specific?

[00:30:59] We [00:31:00] have a whole page full of information there, as well as a place to get on a call with us to see if it could be a fit for you and your workplace. And that's at be super abound.com. There's a a in there be super abound.com/certification.

[00:31:18] Okay great great. Yeah. And I just want to say one more thing that like I think a lot of people will think, well, you know, my organization should pay for this. Like I could do this and this would really help me, but I would have to pay for it. And I don't think that's fair. And I would just argue just to, just to lay it out there, that if it's not going to come from your organization and you're not going to leave that organization and find a place that is willing to pay for that. Then basically you're just like, okay, guess I'll just suffer. You know, like, sometimes we just have to kind of recognize, you know what? I want something different and better for me.

And I'm willing to invest in myself [00:32:00] to create that because I want to enjoy my life. Like I want to enjoy my working life. I want to enjoy my experience at work. We spend so much time there, and I want a long, fulfilling, satisfying career. So I'm willing to make a financial investment for myself in that. And I would also just argue that you never know then where that leads you, right? Because you made that initial investment, what that potentially could bring for you in the future.

So wouldn't say do it. No. Like thinking that for sure is going to happen. But I do think, you know, there are certain things that we think that others should pay for, and there are certain things that we think we should, you know, it's reasonable for us to pay for. This is one where I'm like, you know what? Yeah, if they won't pay for it, then like, fine, whatever. Like fit it into your budget because it's going to make such a big, big, big, big difference for you. So and if it doesn't fit in your budget and no one's going to pay for it, you have your free podcast. You have, you know, other resources that people can get [00:33:00] started on right away and start actually applying it and seeing how it helps them in their leadership roles, whether they realize they're a leader or not.

[00:33:08] You're always leading, even if it's just yourself, your patients, the people around you. We're always having an impact on each other and being intentional about how you do that and why you're doing certain things will only make your life that much richer.

[00:33:23] Yeah, absolutely. Completely agree. Well, Erin, Steve, thank you so much for coming and sharing all of your wisdom with us. This is so great. Really appreciate you both being here.

[00:33:33] Thank you. Katrina, you got all the wisdom.

[00:33:36] We wrung it all out.

[00:33:38] Thank you so much.

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