Ep #395: Weight Loss Success Story – Jenevieve Hughes, MD, FACS, CPE

Well, hello there, my friend. Welcome to today's episode. I'm so glad you're here with me today. 

I have a really, really fun interview again today. I have another weight loss success story with Doctor Jenevieve Hughes. She's incredible. She's so great. I think you're gonna love this interview, this conversation so much. It's like you get to be a little bit of a fly on the wall listening to us chat about things. What I love particularly about this episode, is how much depth we went into on what you might call the strategic byproducts that come from working on weight loss and creating peace and freedom around food through a mindset approach like I offer in weight loss for doctors only. It's not just about weight loss, it really isn't. 

You do lose weight and you do figure all of that out. You, you know, create a different relationship with food and all of that, and that's incredible. And on top of it, so much else improves in your life. And so we spent quite a bit of time chatting about what all those things can be, or at least many of them It's certainly not comprehensive or all inclusive and what we talk about. And so I'm just really excited for you to learn more about that, for you to think about how you might have a similar experience if you were to give this a try.

And, you know, I feel like sometimes I was I was telling Jenevieve before we started recording, I was like, sometimes I feel like people get tired of hearing me talk about it. So I think it's nice to have other people come in and share their experiences as well. So I'm really excited to share Jenevieve's story with you. She's just an incredible, incredible doctor and helps so many women. She's a breast surgeon and we need good people like her in medicine, so I'm so glad that she is able to support people who are doing such great work. Is truly just such a thrill for me. And it helps just recognize the value that is being created every day in the Weight Loss for doctors Only program. So I'd love for you to give this a listen and let it inspire you. I think when we hear about other people's stories, we really can start seeing ourselves in others. It's a great conversation. I can't wait for you to listen so I will stop talking then. So please enjoy this interview with Jenevieve Hughes. 

Hi Jenevieve, thank you so much for coming on the podcast today. 

Jenevieve: Hi, Katrina. Thank you so much for having me. I'm very excited to have this conversation. This is going to be a lot of fun. 

Katrina: These are just great opportunities. I love to just talk to people about their stories and you know, how they've gotten to where they are now. So it's going to be super fun. Let's start off with you just letting the listeners know a little bit about you. What would you like to share just about you?

Jenevieve: I am 48 years old. I live in Texas. I have a husband and two teenagers, a 15 year old and a 13 year old. And then I have a doodle on a dog. So that is our family. I work as a breast surgeon.

Katrina: Okay, cool. Yeah. You've got that, like, very classic little family, right? Including the dog. Gotta include the dog. Okay, so at what point in your life let's like, take it back to the beginning. At what point do you feel like you started maybe having an issue with food or weight? You know, I think like for me, I think I had a food issue long before I had a weight issue. Like, where did it all start for you?

Jenevieve: I can definitely look back to college, to undergrad and see that that was a time where the typical freshman 15, you know, I definitely remember having that happen and feeling like there was a little bit of food scarcity, like, well, I have to make sure I get to the, you know, campus dining hall, you know, at these hours or, you know, starting to want to take extra food back with me or, you know, just kind of trying to make sure I knew where the next meal was going to come from.

Katrina: Like, just in case you get hungry later. Yeah. Yes. They used to get mad at us. If we take, like, an apple out of the dining hall, we'd have to, like, hide it because they get mad. Oh, that's funny.

Jenevieve: I don't remember that at all. I think I felt free to do that, but, you know, that kind of went on through college and then into medical school. I think I was in kind of a stable phase at that point. But then once I hit surgery residency, the idea of like, where's the next meal? When's it going to happen? Food restriction and scarcity really came into play. And I definitely remember, you know, any chance you got you ate whatever was available, which usually was, you know, peanut butter and crackers in the resident, you know, the call room area, you know, whatever foods that the nursing station was available and especially going into, like long surgeries. And, you know, I remember feeling like I don't know what I'm going to get to eat. And so I need to eat now. And there was no attention to any sort of hunger, you know, it was just eat while you have the chance. And the reality is, there was never a time that I did get to eventually eat. You know I got to eat eventually, but not knowing and just not really having the skills or even the thought to try to plan, you know, or bring food or something like that. It was always felt just kind of like, you know, I didn't know where that next meal was often going to come from, and not because I was didn't have the ability to get a meal, but just more the schedule and the crazy hours and work hours and that sort of thing. So I think that's when it really built for me was in residency.

Katrina: And I feel like, I mean, I think for everybody in med school, we learn from the residents and then we perpetuated in residency, but particularly in surgery. You know, it's that idea, like when I really think back to when it was really ingrained in me, like, you need to eat when you have a chance. It was on my surgery rotation, you know, for three months it was surgeons. It's like, oh, this is how we do this. You know, we got to really pile on, like have this huge breakfast because we could go all day. It is really part of that mindset. And I and I think actually for some people, particularly the men, they do lose weight. You know, they're like having a hard time keeping weight on. And so they really do probably need to follow that kind of a mindset. But I think for others of us, right, we start getting into this idea that even if food is plentiful, the way we're thinking about it is as though it's not. 

So then we are always in that state of like relative deprivation. You know, we feel like if we're not deprived now, we're going to be deprived in the future. So pack on as much as you can, which is actually, you know, humans evolved to do that as a survival skill. You know, I mean, if for the vast majority of human existence, starvation was the main cause of death, I mean, it would make sense that when there's food available that you should eat it, you know, but then we just recognize, like, wait, hold on. If I just, like, back up and look really right, like, we're not going to die, we're not going to fall over, there's going to be a meal. Like, maybe I have to go a couple hours longer than typical or what I'm used to, or what I would prefer, but I'm going to be okay. Yeah.

Jenevieve: I mean, for me, it really became mindless eating. Like I said, there were no hunger cues being paid attention to. You know, it was just when you can. And it became very mindless. And I considered myself, at least at that point in my life and for years after to be a foodie. And, you know, we definitely would plan and celebrate with food and plan special events. And that was a big part of my husband and my early relationship, you know, was around food and special restaurants and, you know, everything revolved around food. But it became mindless in terms of not paying attention to my own body.

Katrina: Yeah. Okay. So that all makes sense. Oh, I have a question. In college, were you already pre-med? Did you already know you wanted to be a doctor?

Jenevieve: Fairly early on? Yes I did, within the first year I was pre-med. Yes.

Katrina: Pre-med. Okay. So you already were kind of like on that track because I. And I just bring that up just because I think there is like an additional layer of stress when you know that, you know that that's what the goal is and you know you're building toward that. So like, every grade is so important and you know, all the basics. I remember the basic sciences GPA. Oh yes, I know they don’t do that anymore. But I don't remember who I was talking to recently about that. I'm like, well, it's a little interesting if like, that's cool, because if your basic sciences GPA isn't good enough, they won't even look at you.

Jenevieve: Doesn't matter what the rest of the grades were. Yes, I was pre-med, you know, pretty much all four years. And it is. I mean, it's interesting to look back because I think food for me was not the answer. Definitely a big answer and a big way that I coped with that stress. And I didn't understand that that's what I was doing. I definitely was doing it, looking back on it. But I didn't understand that younger me just didn't recognize that that's what I was using to cope.

Katrina: And when you think about it like getting into, you know, the being a foodie, it's like, you know what? You have time to be even when you're surgery resident is like someone who enjoys a meal, you know, if you are going to eat anyway, you know when you're off. Like maybe you could go to a like a place where the food's particularly good. You know, it's like it seems like a hobby that is very doable, right? Like you don't need a lot of energy, you know, you don't have to get sweaty, like you don't have to, you know, do like, you know, have all this extra time. 

You can do it when you're tired, you know? And so it does start to sound like something that is like a thing that you just have for yourself is like you do work and then you get to look forward to, you know, where you're going to go on the weekend. And that helps you get through the week and things like that. It's like you can see how it makes sense. It's like a logical thing and honestly, there's nothing wrong with it unless another problem ensues comes up.

Jenevieve: Yes, it's socially acceptable. It's like you said. I mean, there's it's so easy to lean on food.

Katrina: Okay, so that was residency. And then at what point were you going, hmm, maybe something needs to happen here.

Jenevieve: So after residency, I did fellowship. And then at the very end of fellowship, I had my first child. And then very quickly after about 15 months later, I had my second. And then after he was born is when I really started to focusing on trying to lose weight. Really. Before then, I was never in any program before then. I don't remember, you know, really making much of an effort to change my body at all. And then after my son was born, I joined Weight Watchers, and that became the start of on and off of Weight Watchers for a long time.

Katrina: Mhm. Familiar story. Yes.

Jenevieve: But I mean I think, you know, when I first started listening to your podcast, that was one of the things that resonated with me is, oh wow, I'm not the only one. Obviously there are many people out there now I know, but I mean, here's somebody else who had a very similar story. And ultimately, in the long run, this did not work.

Katrina: Yeah, right. Well, it's like what when I sometimes people like, why beat up on Weight Watchers? I'm like, I'm really actually not beating up on Weight Watchers. Weight watchers, to me represents any number of different types of programs and ways of trying to lose weight that, you know, kind of have. I mean, yes, you can personalize it somewhat, but basically like this is what you have to do. There's limits, there's counting of some sort. There's always been some sort of counting involved in Weight Watchers, even as they've adjusted things over the years, and then very much like means to an end behavior, like from the majority of people, you're willing to do this to get the weight off and then what? 

And that's the part that has really been missing. Not that they don't talk about maintenance. It's just I was like, yeah, I'm not doing that. I'm not doing that. Then what am I doing? I'm gaining it back because I don't know anything else to do. So I think it's more that it kind of gets us into this idea too, of getting very used to feeling pretty bad, some range of bad, some range of stressed or restricted or extra hungry around the idea of losing weight, you know, suffering through to get to where we want to be. And then, you know, having it for a hot second before we lose it again. And then we start thinking that that is weight loss.

Jenevieve: Yeah. I mean, I think that's where I fizzled out with these different diet programs was two things. One was the counting. Like there would just come a point where I could count no more points counting whatever, and we can talk about what I do now, you know, in terms of kind of tracking, but it's so different than what, you know, required. And I am definitely a bit of a perfectionist, something I'm working. I'm, I'm a recovering perfectionist. That person that certainly like, if I'm going to be on this planet or whatever, I'm going to be all in. So then when it came to that point that I felt like, well, I am so sick of doing this, then it was like, well, throw everything out. 

I can't do any of it. And like you said, I was never in a program with the intention of thinking, I can do this forever. This is me forever. I'm happy with this. That was never even on my radar. There was always going to be an end. And that's what I think is so different. Me now versus then is, you know, and why those programs didn't work for me is there was always going to be an end, and I was never going to count forever. I was never going to eat that way forever.

Katrina: And I think for some people too, right. It's like, I'm not I'm never going to take these medications forever. I'm, you know, whatever it is, anything that we're doing as that kind of means to an end behavior isn't necessarily bad. It is another way, like, you can use Weight Watchers, lose a bunch of weight or any other way and lose a bunch of weight. But then still, what lays ahead of us is the invitation, then, is to figure out a way to maintain that, that we like, that we are, you know, not just like begrudgingly willing to do, but more than happy to do that feels normal and fine and easy and, you know, not that big of a deal. Like that's going to be something that we're more likely to continue on forever.

Jenevieve: And the idea that that was available to me, that there could be a way that I could lose weight and maintain it and like it, you know, I've been reflecting back and I'm in a year, two years ago, if you had told me that, I would've laughed at you, you know, and if you told me that, I could change my thoughts and that would help me to achieve my goals in terms of my health and my body and weight, I would have thought, that's crazy. You know, my thoughts aren't going to fix that. And it turns out I was wrong. I was I was uninformed, uninformed.

Katrina: Right. You just didn't know what you didn't know. Okay, so you did Weight Watchers several times, maybe more than several times.

Jenevieve: I mean, I really one I had one major, um, the first time I did Weight Watchers, I had good success. And and when I got past that weight more recently, again, I it was interesting because I felt that kind of old familiar like fear of like, oh my gosh, I'm now at that point again, can I go below that? Can I keep going past it? Am I going to give up like I did before? You know. And that was really interesting to work through. Some of those thoughts and feelings that I had.

Katrina: We definitely will have memories, you know, like at this weight it means this. And this is where I was at in my life when I weighed that amount. Yeah, there can be a lot to go through, more than you'd think.

Jenevieve: And I'm now at a point that I am less than I was 26 years ago. I mean, really, when I basically the year after college, I don't really have a lot of recordings of what I was before then, you know, in terms of, of weight. But it's crazy to think about that. And I can't ever I don't remember in my adulthood weighing what I weigh now then. And that was an interesting kind of line to cross when I got the low where I had ever gotten with any diet plan.

Katrina: It's like an important marker on the road, right? It's kind of like, oh, this is what this means. So at what point did you start thinking maybe Weight Watchers is not it for me?

Jenevieve: I lost a lot of weight with Weight Watchers. I gained all of it back. And then I tried Weight Watchers again multiple times, but it would be for much shorter spurts than I did initially, and it would always come down to that. Like, I'm so sick of, you know, counting points. I'm so sick of tracking. I don't want to do this forever. And then I would go on and again off again. And so there kind of came a point there where I thought, well, this is just I'm just this is my destiny to be in a body that doesn't feel great for me and this is it. And I was starting to learn more about, you know, my own self-image and that I wanted to improve, that I wanted to give myself more love. And so I thought, well, you know, I need to start by just being where I'm at. But I just kept having this kind of lingering sense of like, I don't feel good. You know? I don't feel good in my body. I don't feel like I can move as easily as I want to. I, you know, have some GI issues and heartburn and stuff like that that I, you know, did not want to live with forever.

But I didn't know if that could ever be something that would go away. And then actually, it really was the fall of 2022 that on Facebook somewhere through physician moms group PMG, which I very loosely follow. I'm so sometimes you know something that I am in PMG and sometimes something will catch my eye. And I think people were talking someone there was a post about weight loss and someone mentioned your name and podcast and I thought, you know, it just caught my attention. And so I went to the podcast and I think, you know, started with a few episodes and really thought, you know, this is different, this is unique. This is not something I've ever heard anyone really saying before. You know, this this idea that my thoughts have power, you know, the thinking cycle and not something I had ever been taught before. And so it really was maybe a month or two went by, listened to podcast episodes. And then there was the offer for the next Waldorf group to join. And I thought, well, you know what? I have to lose.

Katrina: And WLDO was Weight Loss for Doctors Only. That's our nickname for it, for anybody who like what.

Jenevieve: And I really had no idea what I was getting into.

Katrina: And the best way, don't you think? I didn't really know either. I was like, I don't know what this is, but I guess I'm just going to do it and see what happens.

Jenevieve: Before the winter holidays. And I talked to my husband and I was like, what do you think? You know, are you okay if I spend this money? And he's been so supportive the whole process. But, you know, he was like, sure, you know, whatever you think, I trust you. If you think this is, you know something, you want to give it a try. And he knows me well enough to know that, you know, when I say I'm going to do something or at least attempt something, I'm all in, at least for certain period of time. He was very supportive and I thought, well, you know, like I said, what do I have to lose? I don't know what I'm getting into. This seems weird because there's not really like a set program.

Katrina: It's what we're used to. We're like, so what are the rules going to be? Because I want to know all the.

Jenevieve: Rules, and then I will follow all the rules as long as I possibly can, until I beat myself up when I don't.

Katrina: Exactly, exactly. Yes.

Jenevieve: So I kept thinking, well, the rules are going to come later. They must come later. There must be rules. And little did I know, I'd heard of coaching, but I had not ever used it myself. I had no experience with that at all.

Katrina: Well, what I hear from a lot of our members is you have to let people know how much additional help you get in this program outside of just the weight loss. And I'm like, yeah, I know, I kind of I tried to, but also I think some people are like, yeah, forget all that. I just help me lose weight like when they're first coming in. So I get that. But I do think that, you know, when you're thinking about whether this type of thing is the right thing for you, like as an individual, I think it can be helpful to recognize it's not like, okay, this is work that's going to help me in just one area of my life. Like I'm going to build skills and develop tools for myself to use that actually, then really nicely extrapolate over into other areas of my life. 

Or sometimes we actually end up doing it the other way around. For instance, like say, someone you know more acutely has an issue with work and we coach a lot on work. What they learn from doing all of that, they start going, oh, wait a minute. Look, I can actually apply that over here. And that helps me with food and weight and all that stuff as well. So I'm just curious to know from your experience outside of the food and weight stuff, which is great and amazing, and exactly what we want is like to be relieved of the stress and the obsession about that and everything. What else have you found helpful? Like how else has this helped you in your life?

Jenevieve: Yes, I could probably talk for a long time. It turns out that our minds and our bodies are so closely linked, right? And that seems so basic. Like as physicians, we should all know this, but I think we're also we also are somewhat trained to be disconnected. And we're certainly in our training, you know, taught ways of disconnecting ourselves and our feelings and our thoughts and our, you know, from our, our body. I mean, that's kind of the definition of residency in some ways, right? Is you just keep going no matter what, and you ignore what's really in there. 

And, you know, for me, I definitely have learned how closely these things are linked. And that's been the key. You know, I feel like sometimes people ask me, well, what's your secret? And there's no secret. It's just eye and mind opening to find out that, you know, again, changing my thoughts would lead to changing my feelings and my actions and my results. And wow, I can actually get the results that I wanted. So, you know, and a high level I would say that is my secret. That's my the magic there. But you're absolutely right. It has affected so many things. I really do love the concept of The Onion, and I heard one of the coaches say the other day, you know, there's no center to that onion.

Katrina: Meaning just the layers, like you get through one layer and then you've had a lot of improvement and you realize at some point like, oh, look, there's another layer, there's more I can do, there's more I can improve.

Jenevieve: Yeah, you go deeper and you keep going deeper. And it's kind of amazing to think about like that is life, right? And we can spend our lives if we want to, continuing to peel the onion and we learn about ourselves, we learn about others in the world around us that way. And so that's been, in a weird way, fun. Sometimes I think about this journey that I've been on is is kind of the easiest hard thing I've ever done. I love the concept that we can make things easy. We can choose for things to be easy for sure. I never viewed weight loss that way and a lot of other things in my life I never viewed wow, I can approach this as being easy. How can I make this easy? 

And now I feel like I asked myself that fairly often. You know, I've got a challenge I'm facing. What can I do to make this easy? What thoughts do I need to lead to feelings that lead to my actions and results that will make this easy? So some of the skills that I feel like I have learned and the tools that I've gotten for weight loss have completely spilled over into other areas of my life. Another one that I love is winning and learning. There's no losing, and that when I'm not winning, if I feel like I'm not winning, I'm learning something. And that has been a really, really useful gap versus gain mentality is another one. I think we set goals and including with weight loss, you know, I want to lose X number of pounds. And if we don't get there, you know we tend to focus on the gap. Well I was 5 pounds short or whatever it was exactly.

Katrina: Or it took me too long or whatever. There's always some way of seeing what the, you know, glass half empty. Yes. For sure.

Jenevieve: Um, and so that has definitely those concepts have been huge. I mean, I think I mentioned earlier that I'm kind of a recovering perfectionist, and I've really delved into kind of looking at my self-talk and tendencies there to feel like I have to do everything perfectly and be perfect in other areas of my life. You know, definitely not perfect in the weight loss journey and definitely not perfect anywhere else that I would be. I would have used to beat myself up about that. And that's something that I've looked at. Done work on relationships and boundaries and rule books that I have for people, and that's been really meaningful. 

I think the other thing that's been huge is learning, number one, that I have emotions, which again, seems so basic, but I was a complete stuffer, like I was so out of touch with my emotions that unless I was literally bawling out loud, you know, like I never thought to stop and consider what I'm feeling like. I never thought to name it. So I literally, in my journal carry around a feelings wheel. And I still use that, you know, learning to, number one, identify my emotion. And then number two, learning to process them. I didn't even know that was possible. You know, I didn't even know I needed that. And now, I mean, I'm still learning. And it will be a lifelong process, you know, of learning and using that skill. 

But if there's any one thing in this journey over the last year and a half that I feel like is going to be something that is for life, a gem, it's that it's learning how to identify and process my emotions and not stuff them down and not eat because of them or whatever other, you know, vice because of them. And for me, I think a lot of my over desire and my overeating was tied to these uncomfortable emotions that I didn't know, I didn't even know how to name, much less know what to do with. And so food was the answer.

Katrina: Yeah. And when we're looking at it from a more superficial standpoint, we're like, why am I evening? I don't even know. I don't even know why I'm eating. It's like, right, if you're not in touch with that, you wouldn't know. You would.

Jenevieve: Not know.

Katrina: So this is something that can be learned. You know what I always think about it too is I'm like, you know, like, look at you. It's like you learn to become a surgeon. You can obviously learn things. You're an intelligent person who can learn, like, why would we think we can't learn some of these other, you know, soft skills types of things? The reason we don't know them is because no one taught us, like, we would have been great students at it if we'd learned it at some other point in our lives. But we didn't. So the opportunity is now and then we can see how it changes things, and I can just imagine how much it's, you know, just changed, like touched every area of your life, you know, and hopefully it's also improved, like the fulfillment that you get at work. 

Like, you know, it doesn't mean that when things are weird at work, you're not annoyed by it or, you know, like you get to have all the all the feeling about things, but moving past it faster. I think that it's huge at preventing burnout when you know how to process through what's actually going on for you. And I think you can move through those uncomfortable feelings faster to also get to a place where you can maybe advocate from a more, you know, emotionally grounded place instead of from a reactive place or, you know, request what you need and want or you know what I mean, like all the negotiate better and all those things from creating a relative level of comfort and familiarity with those emotions rather than just like, oh, that's an unacceptable part of me that needs to be shut away, never to be seen. And then, oh, I have no idea why I'm drinking three glasses of wine and eating all the chips every night. Yeah.

Jenevieve: I mean, I think work is another, like you said, it's another area where it's just kind of spilled over. And I, I feel like I have experienced some levels of maybe more mild levels of burnout, you know, more recently in my career. And you're absolutely right. And this has been it's just been life changing to rethink about the issues and challenges that come up with work from a different perspective. And I absolutely love that. The idea that no one gets to make me feel anything that I choose my, you know, it's my thoughts that lead to my feelings and that ultimately I'm in control of that. And even if I'm in a situation that feels kind of helpless and, you know, I've done quite a bit of work on burnout and this idea that, you know, oh, we're just victims and we can't control the bigger issues of healthcare and all the world around us and the situation around us. 

I think to remind ourselves that we do have the power to guide our own thoughts and feelings, and that nobody else gets to make us feel anything is huge, and it brings the power back to us individually. And that's been hugely rewarding for me. And I approach my job differently, and I had a month or two earlier on in the program where I, I really just focused on everyday, like getting up and saying, I'm going to choose to want to go to work today. And it's amazing how even just that thought, like, I'm not sure I believed it every day, or especially at the beginning, but then it just started to kind of work its way in, and there was this trickle down effect of, you know, okay, that led to feelings of, you know, fulfillment and confidence that then I could just keep building on.

Katrina: Yes, exactly. And that yeah. It's like you get that that snowball rolling. Right. And then it's easier to keep it rolling when you already have some of that momentum. I really think that's so huge. I'm seeing, you know, more and more people, different organizations anticipating that there's going to, you know, this physician shortage, like people are retiring too quickly and all this stuff. And these are serious things that need to be addressed. And so I very much look at it like, okay, so what can we do to help support the people who are already trained and experienced and, you know, know what they're doing to try to make this a career that people want to stay in. That's part of the value that I get out of helping. Right, is recognizing like, yes, I mean, you know, we need people like you helping all the women in the world who need breast surgery, you know?

Jenevieve: So and I think, you know, for other physicians, I mean, if you're struggling out there, think about coaching. You know, again, this was not an option that I really knew was available to me. But what do you need? To lose weight or not is irrelevant, you know? But think about coaching. Having somebody who can help reflect back to you what your thoughts are, help you identify those thoughts, and then how they fit into a thinking cycles, how they, you know, lead to to the the result you have. And, you know, I think that's just it's so valuable, um, so valuable.

Katrina: Yeah. I mean, just the awareness that comes from that and then recognizing, like, you don't have to change anything, but if you want a different result, like there's three things you can change. Your thoughts, your feelings, your actions. I mean, they all interplay so right. Like that's what you can do. And again like going back to what you were saying earlier, the agency that you have like recognizing, oh wait, I actually have a lot more control over this in the, you know, there's research that shows like as health care has become big hospital systems and, you know, like there's just so few like small independently run practices anymore. That's been a big contributor to physician dissatisfaction and burnout and things like that. 

And if you think about like, running your own practice isn't that easy either, but you get to at least make your own decisions. And I think a lot of people feel like, you know, things are just happening to me. I'm told these things and a lot of ways that is true, but no one can tell you how to think. No one can tell you how to feel. No one can tell you what actions to take. Like that really is ours alone to own. And that's very powerful. That's a way to take some of that power back, to be able to function within the current system the way things are at a higher level and be more satisfied with it doesn't mean that things don't need to change. There's other things that could be beneficial. But in the meantime, if this is what we're working within for now, then what can we do about it? And there is something we can do about it, which a lot of people don't realize.

Jenevieve: I totally agree with that. And that's key. There is something we can do even if it starts with changing our own, you know, thoughts and feelings. But you know, I think there's a lot of sense of helplessness around and that, you know, leads to inaction in a lot of ways. And people kind of discount their, their power to be able to make even small changes in the world around them and in their work and in their situations. And reality is, most of us are not stuck completely in our current situation. We sometimes feel that way, but I think we have to be honest with ourselves in terms of like, if we really wanted to get out, most of us could.

Katrina: Yeah, and not even get out of of medicine, but get out of this particular employment situation or like whatever the situation is, where you're where you're working.

Jenevieve: I love your idea that there's infinite possibilities and infinite answers and infinite solutions, and all you have to do is just find the next one.

Katrina: Find the next one. Exactly, exactly. And just to be clear, you know, it's like when we're working on our thoughts in an environment like this, it's not like a Pollyanna. Like there's no problems here. Like working here is great. That's not what we're talking about. Like, if you don't believe that to be true. Now, we have had some people, some program members who are like, actually, after did all this work, I looked around, I was like, I think we've actually got it pretty good. And that's okay to believe.

Actually, I don't think there's much of a problem here that's also amazing. But I think some people have resistance when they're like, no, this is literally a dumpster fire. And I'm supposed to change my thoughts about it and it's like, well, you know, we can hold two things at once. You know, we can have thoughts about like, the way this is set up is definitely less than ideal. You know, whatever the complaints are, you know, the people running it are mismanaging it, whatever it is. Well, at the same time, recognize like while that is happening, I still get to decide who I am and what my experience is. Within this you are allowed to enjoy yourself from time to time. You know, like have a good workday. Even when all of that is happening. 

You don't have to be miserable all day, every day in response to that, because the only person who experiences that misery is you. Like, there are some organizations who have been really trying to work on reducing the amount of work hours for doctors and like giving extra time, and has not actually improved physicians job satisfaction at all. They're not happier. They're not less burned out, like, you know, like they've gotten the things that they've wanted. And it hasn't helped, which is really interesting. Yes. Very interesting to note, right. Because there's another component that the job can't do for you. And that's the management of your mind. Like as we say, it's not your job's job to make you happy. It's your job to work on that yourself, if you so choose to do that. Yes.

Jenevieve: And I think a lot of us don't really realize we can do that or that we should do that, you know?

Katrina: Yeah. Or that's even available. Like you said, we just never were taught any of this.

Jenevieve: Yeah, I think that's absolutely right. And I have to remind myself that, Bill, you know, when I'm having a bad week or a rough day, I mean, we do, you know, you have to kind of go, wait a minute, okay? You know, I get to have some power and control here. It's what I'm thinking that is producing these feelings.

Katrina: And if I don't like it, like, what am I doing to help that? Now, if I'm waiting for someone to come in? These are things I tell myself. If I'm waiting for someone to come and rescue me, I'm probably going to be waiting a while, you know? So those are like those hard truths that were like, ah, I don't want it to be that way. It's like, welcome to being an adult in this world. But there's, you know, it's great to be in a position where there actually are options and ways to make things better. So thank you for sharing all of that. I think that is that is so great.

Jenevieve: You had just asked about, you know, kind of other things. And I think one of the things that has been pretty pervasive for me in this experience has been learning about my own self-image and learning how to, you know, part of identifying feelings, also learning to listen to my own self-talk. And I did not really know how negative it was. You know, I probably knew that I was more of a glass half empty sort of person, but I just didn't understand that. 

That's another thing that I kind of have control over, and I did not know how much I would kind of beat myself up about all minor things, that I was definitely my own worst critic, you know? And then, I mean, these are layers of that, you know, never ending onion that I will continue to peel back and peel back and peel back. You know, I think awareness is key, like starting with that. I mean, for so many things, just the awareness that, you know, what you're saying to yourself and awareness of, you know, learning where that's coming from, why that's there, or how that's affecting me has been huge.

Katrina: Right? I wonder, I think sometimes some people think like, if I spend all this time just thinking about myself, then I would never have time to actually get anything else done or like then everyone just gets soft or whatever. But I think it's actually the opposite. Like, you're so much more productive when you're not being weighed down by all this negative self-talk or like having the negative thoughts about yourself slow you down. You know in everything that you do, particularly in work, you know, it's like we'll slow you down and just in your efficiency and, you know, lack of confidence is never going to help anybody to do better. And so it's actually the opposite of what you think. Like it's not like you're just like, well, I'm just not going to go to work today because blah blah blah. 

You know, it's like, no, that's actually not what it is. Instead, what it is is maybe you're not feeling great or whatever's going on, and you actually offer yourself some compassion and some empathy, and you're supportive of yourself in recognizing this is a hard thing you're going to do, and you're going to be okay, and you're going to get through this day, and it's going to be okay. Like, what's the first step? Let's take the first step like that. Thinking can shift and can make doing those hard things, those uncomfortable things, the things we don't want to do, you know, at least a little bit better, maybe a lot better, which helps us to get through our lives with, you know, a more relative level of comfort.

Jenevieve: Yeah. And I asked myself that question all the time, like, how can I give myself more grace? Where can I give myself more grace? And where.

Katrina: Especially for a perfectionist.

Jenevieve: Yes. I mean, I've gone so far as to, like, beat myself up for taking all this time for me over the last year and a half. And I'm like, that's insane. Like, you know, why is my inner critic giving me these messages? You know?

Katrina: But I think we have to also like, you know, have compassion for ourselves and recognizing all the messaging that we've gotten in our whole lives about, like, being productive or, you know, you know, even just saying, like, you know, no sense crying over spilled milk or, you know, like, what's crying going to do to help? Like actually crying is super healing and really helps a lot. Get those emotions out. Have your moment and then you can move on instead of stuffing it down and trying to avoid, avoid, avoid, avoid. Like it actually makes life a lot better.

Jenevieve: Yes, if only I had known this years ago.

Katrina: But that we we come into it thinking like we don't we don't, you know, like holding ourselves to the super impossibly high standard is the way and thinking like it's too scary or vulnerable to try a different way, you know, and that that's often what we're doing too, is building up that idea of like, okay, look what you can accomplish the other way where you're actually supportive and nice to yourself and showing yourself, oh, you can accomplish a lot regardless of what you're thinking. So if that's the case and either way is going to work, do you want to do the way where you are super mean to yourself and feel terrible about yourself, and you want to escape being in your own head all the time, or the other way where you actually feel encouraged and supported and like you can do it so good. Oh my gosh. Okay, well, and we know that you lost weight because you told us so. We're we're not even focusing that.

Jenevieve: I gained so much more though. That's the thing.

Katrina: So much more.

Jenevieve: I lost, you know, physically. But I gained so much more and I feel fantastic. I had no idea I could feel so good in my body. And, um, that's been, you know, it's almost secondary to everything else that I learned, right?

Katrina: Right. So good. All right, well, let's wrap things up. If there's somebody who's listening, who's like, huh? That's interesting. You know, maybe this is something I want to try, you know, particularly the Weight Loss for Doctors Only Program. What would you tell somebody? Maybe she's on the fence. She's just not sure. You know, say she came up to you and said, hey, what do you think? What would you say?

Jenevieve: I would say, first of all, it's not too good to be true. It is possible for me. It's possible for you. And we get out of things as much as we put into them. There's some truth to that. But in this program, you're really more doing the work in your mind that I think is a key component. And like you said, it's kind of what's missing from a lot of other programs, a lot of other diet plans and things like that, and uncovering the reasons behind why we gain weight, why we have over desire for food or drink or whatever. You know, that is a key component.

Katrina: Yeah. Absolutely amazing. Well, Jenevieve, thank you so much for your time. Thanks for sharing all of your thoughts and your story with us. I've really enjoyed it and I know so many people will as well.

Jenevieve: You are welcome. Thank you so much for having me.